PCN for tourist Help!

[lubileejubilee]

Hi, more looking for advice than AIBU but I appreciate all feedback.

Yesterday I received a PCN for failing to pay a daily clean air charge when I visited Birmingham at the end of May.

Thing is (and for fear of looking like a complete idiot) I was completely oblivious that clean air charges even existed! I didn't see any signs on my drive into the city, and having googled them know don't think I would have even realised what they meant at the time (or if they applied to myself).

I was visiting from Scotland and live over 200 miles from Birmingham. They don't have clean air charges here or in any cities near me so I was completely naive to this.

Had I received a letter reminding me I was eligible for these charges I would have immediately paid but instead I've come home to a potential £120 fine, and further learned I should expect another £120 fine for when i left the city (I was staying over the weekend and only used my car when i arrived/left).

To rub salt into my wounds I googled the govt site for clean air charges in cities and my car is exempt from all with exception to Birmingham (which is gutting as I'd toyed with visiting Bristol instead that weekend 🙄).

Just wondering if anyone has experience with challenging these PCN particularly as I'm genuinely naive to them, live far away from anywhere that does and would absolutely be willing to retrospectively pay the daily charges for my time spent there.

Thanks in advance.

On what grounds would you appeal?

Wow I didn’t know they exist either!

I’m afraid ignorance of the law is no defence and that applies to tickets like these. The onus is on the driver to check. Not necessarily that fair but that’s the way it works.

Unfortunately naivety isn't a reason for an appeal of a PCN.

Unless you can demonstrate that there were no signs on your route in or out of the city centre I doubt an appeal will be upheld. Several cities now have emissions charges.

My mother forgot to pay for Dartford crossing a few years ago. When she got the notice she called them and explained and they let her just pay the crossing charge. Give them a ring, you never know!

VeniVidiWeeWee I would appeal on the grounds that I had no idea that CAZ charges even existed? As you can see there's one other poster that is unaware of these and speaking (or rather moaning) to a dozen colleagues only one had heard of this before now.

TheFlis12345 The signs that they have posted around the city make no sense to me. They are not currently shown within the Highway Code or within Traffic Sign Regulations and General Directions, so it's unreasonable to assume I (as an out of towner with no such things in my area) would understand or recognise these signs.

Similarly I've not seen anything in the national media to make me aware of the existence of these charges (which apparently came into force last July). Even if there was some communication it could've easily been lost amongst the Covid news which has dominated the media for the last 2 years.

I'm all for clean air schemes and as I say would be happy to pay the charges that I was unaware of, but to jump to fining people a hefty sum that's unfair. I bet if you looked closely enough there's probably some obscure laws we've all broken that we're blissfully unaware of (apparently it's illegal to buy a drunk person a drink!?)

The signs are pretty big, you drive under them.

To be fair, OP, whilst I wouldn't automatically recognise the signs, the words "charges apply, pay online" would have me Googling pretty quick.

I think you're going to have to grovel and hope you find a sympathetic ear.

There was a letter about this in the Guardian a few months ago. The conclusion was that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

www.theguardian.com/money/2022/mar/07/birmingham-council-took-weeks-to-hear-appeal-over-clean-air-zone-fine

Do you need to apply in advance? Seems a bit unfair if you are new to the city as you wouldnt know until you are already entering the city. I'd definitely say give them a call and explain and see if there is anything that can be done as a one off, they may say no but you havent lost anything by asking.

No, you get upto 6 days after you have been in the zone, to pay.

Gosh I've never heard of this, I'd definitely be stung too! That picture posted above doesn't have a picture of a car or tell me where to go online so I'm not sure even seeing that sign would help me!

The signs on all routes into Birmingham are pretty big and very clear and if you use satnav they also tell you you’re entering an area which charges. Most cars are exempt.

You pay the charge after you've visited so why have you got a fine?

Presumably because you didn't know about the charge.

multiple-vehiclecheck-pay.drive-clean-air-zone.service.gov.uk/what_would_you_like_to_do

Use this link and put in your reg and see if they give you the option to pay the charge still.

"VeniVidiWeeWee I would appeal on the grounds that I had no idea that CAZ charges even existed? As you can see there's one other poster that is unaware of these and speaking (or rather moaning) to a dozen colleagues only one had heard of this before now."

In that case theflis has it.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

The fact you hadn't heard of the charges doesn't make you exempt from them.

By all means write and appeal, you might get lucky, but I'd be prepared to pay it.

Username917778

Exactly! There are loads of signs on the roads so how anyone unfamiliar to this is meant to understand it applies to cars or their car is beyond me? On top of that there were a tonne of road works, additional signs/traffic lights, diversions so to expect someone unfamiliar to the city to understand confusing signage in amongst that is beyond me.

I've been recommended a helpful website from a colleague where 'out of towners' have successfully appealed this PCN mainly because like me they were unaware of the scheme, confused by the unfamiliar/unclear signing and not provided a fair opportunity to pay once they were aware of the scheme. Think I'll use that to construct an appeal and see how I get on.

It seems the signs are big and clear to posters that have existing knowledge of this scheme but friends/strangers online unfamiliar, like myself, find them confusing.

Thanks again for the responses.

It's alarming you didn't see the massive signs. It's perfectly clear what they are for.

Birmingham Clean Air zone is really obvious. Scottish cities have them coming too - if you own an older ICE car you need to check clean air zones everywhere...

@Zingy123 I never said I didn't see the massive signs I said the signs aren't clear. They don't exist near me. Every other sign on that road is in the Highway code - these clean air zone signs are not. The signs aren't even consistent in design/colour/background. The only thing alarming is the piss poor way it has been implemented and communicated beyond the local area.

In the first month alone BCC issued 44,000 fines. That's over 1,400 per day! So perhaps not so perfectly clear?

You can also see the sign and completely forget about them.by the time.you have parked.and got to where you need to go, we are only human and it's easy to do with something completely new like this. I drive to.bradford a lot and meant to google.it for weeks before I finally remembered to.when they advertised it was coming

If you read the signs they say you need to pay online. You either saw them or you didn't. There are lots of them. I don't live near Birmingham but travelled there and read the signs.

I'd be amazed if they cancelled your fine because you didn't know what the signs meant. If they did that then everyone who got a PCN would claim they had no idea what a clean air zone charge was. It's a pisser for sure, but as the driver its your responsibility to observe all the road signs.