You don't make a child apologise for having a panic attack

[TechGinny]

This is long, but I don't want to drip feed...
I share my three children with my ex-husband, who has them every other weekend and one evening a week for tea. He lives around 40 mins away and is in the process of buying a house further away with his new fiancée.

Our eldest suffers dreadfully with social anxiety and panic attacks, which were triggered by having to go to her dad's house for a long time, although this has improved recently. On occasion she's felt unable to go and stay there, and I've had to talk her through a panic attack over the phone many times as her dad just doesn't understand (or try to understand) her anxiety. There are other problems there as well, such as him getting her to help out with her younger brothers and then accusing her of acting too much like me, not making her feel heard and making all activities and films centred around what he and the boys want to do. He's told her that in the new house her bedroom will have to double up as the spare room for guests, which has made her feel like she doesn't matter.

This weekend she called me in the midst of a terrible panic attack, which had already been going on for an hour. This is the first time she and her brothers have been with their dad for 2.5 weeks, as he's been on holiday with his fiancée (they got engaged there, so this is very recent for the kids to get used to). They were at a family party for the fiancée's 40th birthday, so lots of people there. The party, combined with having been away from her dad for so long and the new engagement, was too much for DD to cope with, and triggered this panic attack.

Her dad's response was to get cross with her, and instead of taking her somewhere quiet to work through it with him, she had the option of staying in the open-plan house where everyone could see her, or sit in the car. She chose the car, where he carried on being cross with her, then closed the door and walked off with the keys, effectively locking her in (automatic locking).

When she called me in a terrible state, I knew I had to go to her as she'd already been suffering for an hour, but she didn't know the address beyond the city they were in. I called my ex, said was going to come to her and sit with her in my car until she was feeling ok again, and he refused to tell me where they were. I argued with him for a good 10 minutes, explaining that she wasn't doing this on purpose and had got to the point of needing me, until he finally relented and sent me the address. I drove to her, we sat in the car for a while until she was ok enough to go back to the house (as I knew she would with the right support) and came home.

She called me earlier and said that he dad has spoken to her today and told her that his fiancée was upset by yesterday and that DD needed to apologise. I'm absolutely disgusted that he could even think of making his own daughter apologise for her panic attack that she had absolutely no control over, and that he's laid the guilt of his fiancée being upset on her. I think that I need to speak to him about his whole relationship with our DD because he's running risk of damaging it irreparably, but I want to make sure I'm not being clouded by my protective love for her.

YABU - she should apologise for what happened

YANBU - she needs support and love, not blame, and he's wrong to make her apologise

I have been having the exact same issues, my son is only 7 but he has terrible anxiety, asd, sensory processing and possible adhd. We have a court order in place for contact. Children are supposed to go every other weekend and half holidays. Dad consistently changes things right at last minute, this obviously causes problems as my son needs routine and consistency. Dad has no care in the world about how any of this affects him, when my son is with his dad there is so much friction as dad can't be bothered to understand the issues my son actually has, he claims he's a problem child and even phoned social services and reported my son as being a danger to himself and others. He's physically dragged my son up the stairs and him and his wife consistently argue in front of the boys. Dad lock him in the car when going shopping because my son doesn't cope well I'm crowded places. When his anxiety triggers dad tells him off and punishes him. They are forbidden from using their phones when they go there. I took legal advice and also spoke with childrens services and both of them advised me to stop contact until dad can start putting the children before himself. I've also applied to the court for a variation of the court order as my son isn't coping with going there, he has panic attacks each time he's due to go and end up being sick. Needless to say I have stopped contact in person but told dad he's free to FaceTime or call whenever he wishes to. He's done it once in a month and only because it was our eldest son birthday. Due in court in august.

A panic attack for well over an hour? Do you mean she was distressed?

Did he really leave his child alone unable to breathe and afraid? If anyone left my child alone I would not be leaving them there ever.

You come across very critical of your ex and his fiancée, outside of this event, does your DD pick up on that?

Does she know she has the choice not to go? If she does go back definitely use a tracker.

Bloody hell, that's awful, your poor son 😢 Some of these men are just dreadful humans.

Oh god @Ltb17 that’s abusive behaviour towards your child, how traumatic for him. So many men just abandon their children emotionally don’t they, I hope your son feels happier, despite (or as a result of) less contact.

Please show your ex this thread OP.
My dh and I were just chatting about some fathers today and agreed that a significant minority are shit dads.
Your ex sounds like he’s in the significant minority.

My dc are so lucky to have my dh as a dad.

And to add if a 12 year old is locked in a car on purpose I would have rung the police.

OP - I have some experience of this. My DD also has anxiety and from the ages of 8 to 13 has suffered panic attacks. It is horrendous - a genuine panic attack in a frightened child is absolutely heart rending to witness, not their fault in any way, and can be exacerbated by shitty responses to it like that of your ex. He is a prick, he clearly doesn't understand the difference between a child who is having a genuine panic attack through no fault of their own and a child who is acting up/attention seeking/being naughty - the two are not comparable, they are completely different. If he can't get his head around that then she shouldn't be left with him, both because it sounds like he doesn't know what the fuck he is doing (nor does his fiancee) and his anger towards her will be making her even worse and possibly triggering her in the first place. He is a bull in a china shop and the very last thing your DD needs if she is to learn to cope with these episodes. Is she getting any professional help to help her manage these panic attacks? My DD had 4 years of therapy and finally has got to a point where it's been about 4 months since her last panic attack - these things take time and patience to get past, and all the while your ex is getting angry and blaming her he will be making her anxiety worse not better.

@TechGinny @dustandroses yeah he's a horrible man to be honest. Our relationship ended because he was physically and mentally abusive to me and kids. But obviously everything is my fault including the fact my child has asd etc, it's all my fault because I suffer from ptsd and anxiety. (Wonder why after what he put me through) he consistently uses my mental health to make out I'm a bad mother. I sit up hours on end with my son because he has terrible sleep issues, when he has these problems at his dads he's not allowed to leave his bedroom between the hours of 8pm and 8am because dad like a lay in!
He's been happier since contact stopped, but he's anxious about contact restarting and is scared that dad may just turn up at the house or school one day. It's a hard situation because sometimes I don't know what to say to him. I can't sit and say what I really thing of dad, I have to make excuses and say some people don't understand how asd, anxiety etc affects people.

She was sobbing, barely able to speak or breathe properly, in full panic. Obviously I wasn't there for the time leading up to the phone call, but her dad said she was 'crawling the walls' in his text to me, and she's scratched her face (which she often does in the midst of an attack and has lost all control).

I am critical of the lack of support they give her, yes, and it is difficult to keep my shock or emotions completely to myself when she's telling me about something that has happened and the way it's made her feel. The only think I'm interested in is how my children are when they're away from me... I honestly don't have any opinions on them otherwise.

My daughter also suffers with this but she is under the care of a CAHMS psychiatrist and claims maximum disability payments for it. The condition is panic disorder and if it continues it can grow into full scale agoraphobia. Your ex is lacking in knowledge or understanding and empathy but I suggest you go for it and get her seen by a child psychiatrist then he may take it more seriously. I've had to deal with all that minimising shit too but I don't anymore!

It's absolutely dreadful, isn't it - I'd do anything to take her anxiety away. She's had support at primary school in the form of ELSA sessions, but she's now in secondary school. She has a keyworker there and a time out pass to leave lessons and go to a quiet area, but I agree that now is the time for further help. I'm going to call our GP first thing tomorrow.

I'm so sorry your daughter suffers too, how old is she, and how long did it take for her to get help from CAMHS? I'm wondering whether it would be better to self-refer st

Pressed send too soon...

I wondering whether it would be better to self-refer straight to CAMHS now you've said that? Especially as she self harms in the form of hitting and scratching herself when she has an attack.

I would be so upset that he refused to tell you where she was. That can’t ever happen again, he needs to be told this. Did you go through court for contact? She needs to know she can refuse to go or leave at any time. Her needs are paramount, not his fiancée’s. If the fiancée has no experience of children, I can understand why she thinks your dd needs to apologise, but she needs to be told about panic attacks, it wasn’t deliberate and her father should have dealt with the situation far more sympathetically. Your dd does not have to nor should she apologise for what is essentially her father’s lack of empathy.

So she's had anxiety for a long time. Her panic attacks started in year 9 so she was 14. During lockdown her panic attacks became agoraphobia and suddenly we woke up to the absolute horror of this for her. I knew public services here were non existent so I got her seen privately through clinical partners. I'm happy to help if you pm me. She's now 16. She still has the odd one but much more controlled on medication and she can go out to more places and spaces now.

It sounds like he doesn't understand that a panic attack is involuntary, and thinks that your DD is getting herself worked up for attention or to be disruptive. Obviously, you know this is not the case. What about arranging a family therapy session to discuss the situation? Would he be willing to take part in something like that?

I don't think showing him this thread will help. Lots of people saying what a dick he is isn't going to sway him. And if you are angry or confrontational with him, it will only alienate him and make him dig in his heels. You are right, but being right isn't what wins arguments. He has to get to a point of understanding.

Alternatively, if he refuses to come to some understanding, then maybe you are dealing with an abusive father. Certainly, locking his 12 year old daughter in a car could be seen as abusive and dangerous behaviour. In which case, maybe limiting contact is the best option here.

An anxiety attack definitely can last that long, coming in waves of varying intensity. I've sat with children at work for that length of time (whilst somebody else was calling home) to ensure they're safe and not alone. It's heart rending to witness, but all you can do is be reassuring and wait for it to pass - they usually fall asleep afterwards. And witnessing it can mean they get better support because it's not written off as 'just a bit of anxiety' and the SENDCO can get involved.

Trapping her in the vehicle was completely inappropriate and likely made it worse, as she had being trapped in an enclosed space as an additional stressor.

I wouldn't show him this thread, as he could become angry from the idea of tracking or what has been said about him. But she is able to refuse to go and he can be told that whilst being angry with her and trapping her is on the table, she's not going to be able to stay - even though she wants to - you want her to have that relationship with him, but you are worried that the response of being angry, trapping her and then making her feel ashamed of her reaction to stress will lead to her feeling she isn't safe and won't come anymore.

He’s an absolute failure. He obviously favours the boys and the cruel treatment of her when she’s struggling is inhumane.

I’d take her to the GP and make it quite plain she doesn’t have to attend the house of her twat father and his girlfriend.

Talk to your daughters school. To the SENDCo. Most schools now have some kind of councellor on staff because so many of the kids are struggling because of lockdowns that it is affecting their absense figures. They will be a much quicker source of help than cahms if the lists around here are anything to go by - but get her on that list too of course.

They will refer you to the cluster for help first. Its counselling but in my experience pretty ineffective for panic disorder. You will have to push to get her seen by a psychiatrist. I'm still getting letters from CAHMS saying we are on their waiting list! It's ridiculous. This is why I went private!

My yds panic attacks look, to the outside world, like she is a sulky stubborn teenager having a tantrum. In reality, she closes down and can't communicate to anyone for at least an hour. I wonder if your ex's new fiancée thought this was what was happening and not a panic attack? I know I wouldn't be sending my child back if no one there knew how to help her through this.

I was just about to get a bit terse for you not being proactive enough until I read that you had booked a GP appointment. that is the right first step

this very well may become a custody issue, though hopefully he will start to deal with it better before it gets to that.

As much as you don’t want to interfere with her relationship with her dad, you have to protect her mental health.

Of course she shouldn't apologise! Rather the reverse.

Imprisoning her in the car was a criminal offence. Doing it when your daughter was already having a panic attack was mental cruelty in the extreme. If Social Services heard about this, I strongly suspect they would be saying she must never go there again.

I'm not suggesting you report your ex, but you, he and his silly fiancée need to realise how serious this is. Certainly your daughter should never go there again unless there are cast-iron safeguards in place to ensure there is no chance of any repetition.

God the fiance sounds awful

What a complete bastard he is