To wonder when tantrums stop being normal?

[Whengoodtimesatthefairgobad]

My DS is 4 and starting school in September. He is generally a happy and lovely little boy - kind, caring, funny, actively wants to share, mostly very polite etc. Like most 4 year olds he does push boundaries/bicker with his sister but he can usually be reasoned with/distracted/bribed/threatened.

But he has absolutely epic tantrums sometimes. I’m not sure when a tantrum is considered a meltdown but I’m talking totally distraught, completely unreasonable, runs away in dangerous situations, hits and bites, pisses angrily on things and basically totally fucks shit up (ie overturning furniture) It doesn’t happen all the time, sometimes 1-2 times a week and other times he can go a few weeks without a mega doom tantrum.

Today we’ve had one on a family day out and I just feel really sad and defeated about it. It was over absolutely nothing and then he couldn’t be reasoned with in any way. He bit me really hard. He was running away and it was really dangerous - I had to pretty much restrain him for 15 minutes that was shit for both of us. We all had to go home. I did manage to keep the appearance of being calm but I was absolutely furious at the time. We do talk about it afterwards and he is genuinely remorseful and I don’t think he can control it at all. I don’t normally punish because of this but will do natural consequences - ie today we couldn’t stay at the fair because you hurt me and how you were behaving was really dangerous. He was devastated about going home. We have had a little success with counting, breathing techniques and talking about staying calm but today he was wailing ‘I’m trying to be calm but I can’t’ over and over.

He’s fine in nursery.

I have ADHD, diagnosed as an adult, and I deffo had mega tantrums as a child until later than what would be considered normal. I can remember how distressed I would be - it was like a flight/fight response.

Basically when do normal kid tantrums start being something else?

Do I just need to load up on parenting books!?

I’ve been wondering this a lot too. My DD will be 4 in September, and her tantrums are quite frequent and huge. It does worry me.
She’s got other things going on though, such as a speech delay and not interacting with other children at nursery. So she’s been referred to SALT and paediatrician.
I keep telling myself that maybe she’s a late starter, but deep down I know there is a strong chance she might have ASD. Her older brother does.
I’m waffling on a bit now, but just wanted to say you’re not alone regarding the tantrums.

Anecdotal experience only but ASD meltdowns feel different to tantrums. There’s an edge of panic because they’re not actually in control of it but being controlled by it, and for me that’s how I knew when the tantrums were more than just that. I’d say urinating and biting a bit out of the ordinary.

I’m not sure the level of tantrum you’re describing would ever be something I would consider ‘normal’ -biting, hitting, trashing furniture, weeing????
Does this happen at nursery/preschool??

Thanks for responses. Don’t have any concerns about him socially - he’s very well liked by his peers and even his older sister’s friends enjoy spending time with him. Seems pretty bright to me as well.

I don’t think his tantrums do really fit into typical ASD type meltdown behaviour.

Well this is the thing, @Smartiepants79, anecdotally I’ve seen all of these behaviours in my freind’s kid’s toddler tantrum years - all turned into reasonably well adjusted normal kids. I was feeling pretty lucky that I’ve so far evaded having to deal with poo smearing in my parenting career.

Says in OP that he’s fine in nursery.

I just want him to be happy and safe. I’m worried about him starting school - I really struggled and despite being v bright it destroyed my self confidence and mental health from a very young age. He’s very like me in lots of ways. My DD6 also has a lot of ADHD like traits but in a different sort of way. She loves school and seems to be doing really well but her attention or lack of it has been commented on.

@funinthesun19 its very hard to work out the difference isn’t it? He definitely has normal bad behaviour too - he was being a right pita yesterday and he was in control of it just not wanting to do boring things like tidy etc.

I’m glad your daughter has been referred least it gets the ball rolling for extra help if she needs it.

I think one potential way to tell the difference between a tantrum and a meltdown is does he stop if you give him what he wants?

My DS struggles massively with emotional regulation and will have meltdowns. Once he’s having a meltdown you could offer him what he wants but it won’t make a difference, the meltdown will continue regardless.

My dd had epic tantrums that stopped about age 4,5.

how does he behave in nursery?

my son is 4 (today!) and can have tantrums over small things. He behaves like an absolute Angel in nursery. He’s a good talker but just hot headed

I agree with @AloyNoraWarrior . A tantrum is less about being out of control and more about wanting to get what they want. These sound more like meltdowns.

Is there any consistency in when they happen? eg is it when he's over tired or over stimulated? eg in noisy environments or when there are too many options? It may well be that at nursery there are more options for him to self regulate and/or that he masks at nursery. I would consider what you're describing to be more extreme than a tantrum and more worrying and would be considering next steps. It might be observation re triggers for now, but it might be an appointment to discuss with a GP with a view to getting referred for assessment.

Yeah, I know what you mean / he’s like that too with the big ones - he wouldn’t stop if you gave him what he wanted. It turns into he doesn’t even know what he wants he’s just really angry and sad.

But normal toddler tantrums can be like that too, esp when they’re tired. They start over something and then end up just being distraught at everything.

But what about if I’ve never experienced a normal toddler tantrum because my kids have ADHD, I have ADHD and I’m not sure what my DH has but he’s not normal either!?

He might just be a bit immature. But honestly, it seems to me that at 4, that level of tantrum is not normal. The running away in particular sounds disturbing to me - "normal" tantrums in my experience are all about keeping the attention localised and firmly on the child involved, NOT an attempt to get away from everything no matter what.

And with a family history of neuro-divergence, it's not exactly unlikely that he is also ND.

It's really hard isn't it
I would say my child was still having tantrums at your child's age OP
But yours do seem quite extreme from what you say?

I am having behaviour problems with my child but she's 8 but I'm really unsure what is a meltdown and what is not what you'd class as a meltdown

I hope you don’t mind me following this. My DS is also 4.5 and has epic meltdowns and I have wondered whether I need to speak to a dr about them. Sending lots of empathy to you - it sounds really hard 🌺

Sometimes I'm unsure.
Sometimes it's really obvious

Really appreciate all the replies and sympathy, sorry other people are having this difficult behaviour to deal with too.

I’ve been thinking about it and I’m definitely going to start keeping a brief diary to see if I can identify any triggers. It could be tiredness - I’m going to have a bed time crack down as my kids do go to bed pretty late for UK but generally seem fine with it. New places seem to feature quite a bit, and also potentially overstimulation.

His behaviour generally is very good. Because we can go a couple of weeks without incident it just falls off my radar. I’ve never been one of those parents who has to worry about their kids getting hangry or staying out too late because they are generally very happy. Obviously they’d get grouchy if really hungry or tired but I see parents at the end of the school day practically forcing snacks into their kids and it’s just not something I’ve ever previously worried about.

I was coming on here to say that meltdowns wtc are normal beyond this age bht reading about biting and restraining and urinating - that’s not normal behaviour and I think you should seek help for him

Tantrums at this age? Fine
"biting, hitting, trashing furniture, weeing?" Bizarre behaviour. Not fine. Get him some help asap.

With my son when he had tantrums at 4, I thought "oh, he's only 4, still quite little". By the time he was 7 and still having them, I thought it was a bit odd. I mentioned it to his paediatrician and he was referred for an ASD assessment. Diagnosed 2 years later.

What do you mean by angrily pissing?

Angrily pissing - admitted only happened a couple of times - wets himself mid tantrum and looks very defiant while doing so!? He’s very well toilet trained normally and has been for a long time.

I’m going to try and get both my children assessed.

My 6 year old has tantrums maybe even meltdowns but only at home and they have been worse this half term as she is over tired - a few back to back illnesses and too many after school clubs. With my experience of children’s tantrums is they are rarely because they want something but more because they are overwhelmed with emotions which come with disappointment or just tiredness/hunger or whatever is happening so counting will just make it worse.

OP your description sounds like much more than the average tantrum.

Huh. That’s a new one! Assessment can’t hurt. There’s definitely enough there that I’d be a bit worried - the chucking tables etc especially if it ever comes out in school could be a real problem. That’s often the reason we end up evacuating whole classes and I must say, I’ve never had a child in reception that throws the furniture around who hasn’t been later diagnosed with ASD.

Well my ex husband continued to have them and he was 40 when we split so no idea what age people grow out of them or they stop.

I don't consider that normal at all. A bit of a tantrum at an earlier age, 2-3 when they are frustrated and can't control their emotions inns, but by 4 and starting school soon, it should be more in control. And definitely not to that level.