To think that having to have a DBS check to home educate is unfair.

[Grimed]

Baroness Garden is intending all homeschool parents to be DBS checked. I don't think this is fair. What makes Homeschool parents more likely to be abusive? Surely regular checks from the local LA should be enough? If the education system is failing so many children perhaps that is what's needs examining not parents. What's next? All pregnant women get DBS checked?

Yes, you probably would Heleena
I could paper my house with the number of DBS certificates I've got. I'm enhanced DBS checked for work, then twice more for 2 separate voluntary roles, and then when I went as a helper on a school trip for one night, to look after my own child's medical needs, I had to have another!
I think it is a money making racket. There was talk a while ago of making them transferable but I'm not sure if has happened.
The most ridiculous example I have ever had was a few years ago at my then work place. We had a vacancy filled with an agency worker, being paid about 3 times the regular staff, but she liked it and decided to apply for the permanent role which she got. Then a couple of days before she was officially due to become permanent she was told by HR that she couldn't start because her DBS check hadn't come through. "What?" said our boss "She's been working here for nearly 6 months, she must be checked surely". "Yes" said HR " But only as an agency worker, not as one of our staff". So she ended up getting her agency contract extended for another month at premium rates whilst she waited for the new DBS. Same person, same job. Ridiculous. I really have very little faith in the system.

Not sure what happened there. I'm against it for all the pints I detailed on earlier posts. And homeschooled children have gps too, so that doesn't wash. As for health visitors - no one bothered to turn up for my last child but I'm not sure the cup of tea with the others amounted to a safeguarding safety net.

But how would a DBS check pick up current abuse?

Can you please show proof of this?

No, not all parents who say they are home educating are abusers with a criminal record - BUT - there is no difference legally/practically between anyone who is doing it as they should and somebody who isn't - if the LA knows of them at all, which isn't a legal requirement at present.

The DBS might be useful in picking up the other adults in the home as well - you know, the ones who have joined the family at a later date and all too often turn out to be violent with a long criminal record and harm the children and/or the parent.

I could be offended that anybody ever thought it was essential to check if I had convictions or other risk factors in my history for working with vulnerable adults and children, just like the only type of HEs here could be offended. But nobody's got a problem with my being checked (including me) - and as abuse is more likely to be perpetrated by somebody in a child's home than it is in a formal setting, it makes absolute sense that all adults should be regularly checked when they have taken a legal step that automatically removes a layer of sight where safeguarding is concerned.

I could also be offended that my bag gets checked when I go into a venue - but I'm not because there is no way of knowing without checking if I'm carrying a weapon or other means of harming people. I know I'm not a murderous terrorist or somebody who thinks a knife is the way to deal with anybody who annoys me - but the guy on the door doesn't know that, does he? I'm also happy that the other people in the queue have their bags checked, too - as I don't want to be on the receiving end of somebody else's aggression if I accidentally knock their arm when they're holding a plastic cup of £5 luke warm Red Stripe. Or to experience an Arena incident.

I'm pretty sure this is a follow up to the huge numbers of children who didn't show up on school registers following lockdowns - there was likely to be a record of a child existing from birth records, child benefit records or suchlike, but no indication of where they are now. State Schools have to report if a child disappears, but if they don't pop up again, they could be out of the country, in private education (although they are generally onboard with the protection as well and also notify the LA of leavers and starters), in unregistered schools, anywhere.

When a child could be anywhere and with anybody, anything could be happening to them - because, well, abusers would say that they were home educators being picked on, wouldn't they?

@MissShapesMissStakes
for all children there are GPs, dentists, other health care professionals.

What I mean by that is, when you don’t take a young child to GP for vaccinations or refuse health visitor checks they usually follow up.
There aren’t many obligatory health checks for school aged children so that’s why an extra check might be helpful.

however I do agree that DBS might not be the most useful as it only checks for caught crimes.

At least this is logically consistent but would you agree that such a big step onto the lives of families by the government should be openly discussed and carefully negotiated and not achieved because we created the precedent because of a deep mistrust of homeschoolers and a legislative leap?

I assume the LA would bear the costs. The same LAs that complain they can't fund SEN provision?!? Or is this where the intend to channel the SAO fines money into? Presumably they'd be done annually.

Thousands of kids are out of school because they are school refusing since the pandemic and have mental health issues.

The thing that would really help children at risk would be more funding for social services, health visiting, cahms, respite care, homestart, support for victims of domestic violence to get out etc.

This seems to be a 'what can we do that is cheap so we can say we have done something'

This. Absolute nonsense. What's the logical justification?

How many UK non home schooled children are harmed or killed by their parents annually?
What's the percentage from both groups?

I'm not an expert but from what I can see the vast majority of children killed or taken into care annually are either under school age or were at school.
Whenever home ed is involved it hits the headlines, and generally has involved SS already being aware and failing to use the powers they already have.

We do

we have the local authority check every year. Or they should be doing so. So that’s already in place.

Exactly. What would also help is making sure that children don't grow up to become abusers

what are they trying to achieve? Is it that the child is not being abused OR that the child is receiving an appropriate education OR both?

dbs may be a rough screen to check if a child is at risk. BUT it will not detect if a child is currently being abused and it won’t give any indication of the education. The time between the last health visitor check at like 1-2yrs old and school starting is pretty big - so every kid that is not in nursery should probably be checked.
Why not do a child well-being check for the kids who have not been seen by any services that year (or 2 years, or whatever interval)?

dbs system is a bit silly - because you need different levels for different jobs, they are non transferable between different posts. Sounds like a poorly designed, inefficient system.

For education: why not give meetings at different stages (eg key stage 1 end, before secondary school, before gcse courses start, before a level courses start)?
Then give kids and families information about these usual ‘milestones’ - offer them help, advice, options, exam centres (Bering in mind the usual timescale of 10gcses by 16 may not be appropriate for every kid).
As the child grows, they should be able to decide more about what education they would like.

This!

This.

Absolutely this.
There is not enough checks on home educated children.
Some are entirely invisible.
That poor boy Dylan in Wales who had no access to medical care of any kind and died from treatable and preventable Scurvy for example.
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/dylan-seabridge-scurvy-crymych-eglwyswrw-18980972.amp

Absolutely. Preventing homeschooling, I agree, is not a massive factor in preventing child abuse as a whole. Such a large change in social services would require considerable planning/refinement/expenditure. It's not something that could really be sneaked through, nor should it be.

Child abuse will never be completely prevented- if someone is hell bent on abusing their child and concealing it from authorities, it's quite difficult to stop them.

However, the vast majority of families who child protection social workers end up dealing with are not malicious criminal masterminds. They are people rendered unable to provide a suitable environment for children due to drug/alcohol addictions, debilitating mental illness, existing trauma from their own families etc. This is far less difficult to identify- often because there isn't too much attempt to conceal it. You wouldn't require massively invasive background checks to identify a significant number of at-risk children early on. You could then firstly attempt to help the parent(s) or, if that is beyond possibility, protect the child early on.

The current system where children are only removed from dangerous environments (and the bar isn't exactly high for parents in that regard) after years of trauma and neglect is a far from ideal one.

He wasn't invisible.

How often and what kind if checks do you think the LA should do?
What kind of checks do schools do?

For saying they have GPs and dentists, lots of kids never see a GP (my 2 haven't) and lots of children aren't registered with a dentist. Plus people who deliberately home school for the purposes of committing abuse they also restrict the childrens access to things like health care professionals. It is only when the child needs emergency treatment that they come in to contact with main stream services.

I doubt DBS checks would do much for these groups though.

A DBS check is a hammer to cut a plank of wood. There should be an educational contact for HE children where they can be seen in a centre ( like a local library or sports hall ) where they can be encouraged to get to know the facilities and mix with other HE children. For those unhappy with that, a home visit or note on medical /dental records to be aware of fewer opportunities for contact could work better. A much higher number than average proportion children in HE have additional medical needs ( unmet needs are a very common reason for HE ).

I suspect that the very vulnerable children most people are concerned about are more likely not to have been registered with the LA in the first place - perhaps that would be a better place to concentrate resources.

A compulsory DBS check is a level scrutiny not appropriate for parents who have not behaved in a way to attract concern - HE is a rightful option in this country and should not attract prejudice - For those who don’t see a thin end of a wedge looming I would encourage some reflection on what other family choices could be seen as undesirable in future.
I say the above as someone who is HEing a child after initially choosing many years of conventional school. I have gladly chosen to be DBS checked for volunteering (passed) but would not like to live in a society where exercising my legal and legitimate parental choices resulted in a compulsory check that puts my family under a level of scrutiny that in itself might prejudice other care or access decisions. As A&E frequent flyers (lifetime medical issue, don’t get excited!) The “are you known to social services” question always crops up so let’s not pretend that there is nothing to be cautious about.

Most other parents are an unresolvable extended period of bullying, unexpected medical issue, mental health episode or whatever cause away from deciding to HE for the sake of their child. Then with a parental DBS check established as precedent in safeguarding children when a legitimate but minority choice is made, extension to other choices is no big deal. ( E.g. I have always chosen to vaccinate so far, but don’t intend to always agree no matter what. I want to decide, even though I will probably always say yes. )

As others have said, the scope of a check can be adjusted very easily, and I couldn’t even tell you what would fail a person now. Does violence include that pushy scuffle episode out side a club in someone’s youth or drugs include a caution for joining in with weed at uni that unlucky time ?
I am alright (as in not significantly affected) with this proposal, it does not mean that I’m happy to pull up the ladder though.

@NeverDropYourMooncup in the recent cases of children who've been murdered, the people responsible would have passed a DBS. In Arthur and Stars case, they were seen by inadequate SWs. In both cases SS were being badgered by the families and chose to dismiss them. In the case of Debbie Leitch (a vulnerable adult) she was let down by a doctor and services. Her Mother would have passed a DBS.
This is another one of those easy suggestions that sound good on paper, but do nothing. It'll be adopted by a government who doesn't give a shit about child welfare, especially WC child welfare.
We need a dedicated team team for HE, or rather children who've been suddenly removed from schools. But then, we have so many children out of school because of a lack of SEN provision, failing schools and bullying, the government doesn't want that under the spotlight. What are we going to do about families who've arrived in the UK? Because there's plenty of countries were sexual crimes and child abuse doesn't see the perpetrator charged. So a DBS means nothing, until they are caught doing something in the UK.

This is an interesting proposition. I am not sure whether a DBS would prevent abuse, however, things like criminal records may show up.

I have experience of children safeguarding. In my experience children of pre-school are the most vulnerable because they don't really come in contact with services. It true that they have contact with GP and health visitors. However, they are less likely than schools and other agencies to make safeguarding referral particularly GP. Even children are missing health checks or when health professional know the parents have a history, referral are not made. Generally. they only make referral when there is very overt signs such injuries etc

The majority of safeguarding come via schools and nursery as they have regular contact with children and usually are more experienced at spotting worrying signs. Referral often come from agencies the parents have been in contact with such as police etc

In my experience most safeguarding comes via school and nursery. I appreciate most parents who home school there children are not abusive, it is important to appreciate that it easier to conceal abuse if children are home school. Please note even if people see home school, most people would not actually spot signs of abuse unless it very overt.

@axolotlfloof again reports were made about Dylan. The education officials who were refused access made the decision to not escalate it to SS/Police protection. Both his parents would pass a DBS. Only a dedicated HE team would have been any use, but Wales can't fund one. Our government won't fund services which keep children alive.