To ask how you think social issue arise?

[BloomsburyNook]

I'm nearly 50, so have seen a few decades. When I was young, if you visited a small handful of rough or run down places, you might see a few drunks or 'miscreants' or young lads messing around, but never anything really threatening or visible.
So it might just be me, and I've led a fairly quiet life, but there seem to be a hell of a lot more issues out there now, especially in ex industrial places and urban towns around the UK. I see a lot more homeless people, many who have evident addiction issues: women as much as men, and there are more gangs of teens smashing stuff, shouting, fighting, etc.
However, in many areas you hear that crime rates have dropped over the years. Perhaps it depends where you go, and many people in bad areas won't report to the police anyway.

I often travel with work, and see this across the uk, much more dereliction and dying high streets, and in many towns there's literally rubbish piling up along embankments and street corners that the councils never clear up. And it's not simple enough to say it's because these are run down areas - they were run down decades ago but not like this.

I know there are many lovely places, and I've lived in a few of those, too, and some go downhill a bit, some remain safe. So if you don't get out a lot you might not know it's going on? I don't know. I asked a few older friends recently had they noticed and they did admit that there were elements of this knocking around in the 70's, 80's, etc, but not to this extent.

How did it become worse? What is your opinion? What could be done to help? Are people generally poorer than 20 yrs ago? This is presuming poverty as a causation - is it? The news headlines often affirm this, but I don't really know across the board. I know there are a lot of very closed off towns that might make these issues worse due to people rarely leaving them, but is the issue more cultural than economical?

I think people are generally angrier and less satisfied on the whole, we are all a lot more stressed out even if some of us report we are doing great and don't notice it! It just seems like a different world from when I was in my 20's. And of course, it is! Imma gettin old!

@basketb I am an immigrant and actually I think the opposite. I mean, my dad back home told me my £400k flat is very cheap and affordable (compared to private housing in my home country) and in truth, London living is relatively cheap compared to many places in the world! Never mind the rest of the UK. Many Asian cities are cut throat places with high cost of living as the economies grow. London is a bit of a respite really from the craziness...I mean, as the pound falls, property will become even cheaper from a foreigner's perspective so an immigrant with savings can pick up a property with relatively low mortgage or as cash buyer and that will help mitigate against the lower earnings/higher taxes. I mean property in many tier 1 Chinese cities far exceeds London/major cities and 90% of Chinese people in their 20s are homeowners (and Chinese banks give small mortgages like 50% so they have a lot of equity!).

And actually as the middle class in China and India grows, the number of people eligible to be interested in travelling/immigration also grows. Many would not be here forever，but in a sense that is good for the NHS if they are paying into the system but not spending their elderly years here.

@basketb oh and also should mention that even though my grandma is not eligible for hefty government subsidies, she still did not go for private healthcare but used the state system.. my uncle who lives in America and is used to paying the moon asked us if going private would make a difference but my dad (who is paying) said no. I think that if we get our NHS to be halfway decent due to the extra funds, it would be the case here that people who used to spend money on private healthcare would spend money on NHS too. Also my grandma was terminally ill on life support in hospital, I am not sure whether that can even be covered in the UK under private health insurance. I don't think it's covered under the policy I have. So NHS should set it's prices lower than private. And what I imagine is a gradated scale i.e..someone on £150k pays 50% of costs up to a cap. Someone on £100k pays 25% of costs. Someone like my DH on £65k pays 10% of costs (and he would happily do so instead of going private).

This thread has been extremely interesting to read, thanks OP and all who have contributed.

I haven't RTFT but isn't one of the main reasons that the population is just so much bigger now and our infrastructure can't cope?

@Ticksallboxes coming from a country where our population has grown 20% in the past 20 years (and our healthcare system is not overwhelmed), it's bad governance to not plan for population increases/demographic changes. Even people planning children would try to future proof; no one thinks that someone who plans to have 5 children in a 1 bed flat is being sensible, let alone the government. Numerous studies say that immigrants are net taxpayers i.e. pay more in than they take out; we knew about ageing population and people living longer for possibly decades. But the response to the financial crisis was to cut cut cut and I guess the people worst affected didn't know who to blame so blamed immigrants/benefit claimants? We are returning to the years of higher government spending but I think the damage is done.

I think you've just led a sheltered life.

I'm 43, and grew up in Glasgow in the early-mid 1980s: my god, what a grim, grey, depressing hole it was.

I was born and brought up in a relatively 'genteel', lower middle class area of the southside and there were definite 'no go' areas in the city centre, east end and parts of the north of the city - not just because they were unpleasant or dirty, but because they were downright dangerous.

Such was the case for many post-industrial areas in Scotland, the North of England and (I daresay, although I have no experience of it) Wales in the 1980s and early 1990s.

I don't think that things have necessarily got worse, but what's more depressing is that, for many areas and many people, things haven't got substantially better, 40 years on.

'Why is this the case?' is the question we should be asking ourselves.

@AffIt I watched 'Cornwall' on iplayer last night, a young cornish guy said 'his friends couldn't get jobs, so they turned to crime and all wound up in jail'. His female friend also said that anyone who wanted a job has left.

Probably true for many deprived areas.

@onthefencesitter I personally think that any means testing for the NHS which only looks at income will go down like a lead balloon. Covid lead to the "silver exodus" where large numbers of people in their 50s left the workforce & I think this would encourage more.

I also think any more burden on the young will lead to increased brain drain.

Do you not think the Chinese workers will become more incentivised to stay in China as they have a big demographic change looming?

I'm all for migration (I'm 2nd gen) but it's not very popular hence Brexit.

On a slight tangent, for those interested in the effects of endemic poverty and the associated epigenetic phenomena (which also touch on widescale trauma, such as war etc), I highly recommend a book called 'The Tears That Made the Clyde', by the social researcher Carol Craig*.

Its focus is Glasgow, obviously, but it also looks at other post-industrial cities such as Liverpool and Manchester.

*I am not Carol Craig, btw, nor do I know her: I just think it's a very interesting book.

@basketb i think the opposite actually, i think chinese workers will leave. As people become richer, they go up maslow hierachy of needs and the top tier is self-actualization. Self actualization can come in various forms, but a big way how many people rediscover themselves is through travel. An ageing population doesn't mean the young stay ; in fact in many eastern european countries, the population is ageing but the young leave. China is also looking at relaxing immigration rules particularly of overseas Chinese; something like 14% of Thai people are of chinese descent.

Immigration is not popular in most countries tbh. But the factors that lead to higher immigration often are not within the population or sometimes even the government's control. Australia and Canada's points based system led to more immigrants, not less. If the ingredients are right- universal common language (English), business friendly environment, cosmopolitan cities, property rights, the immigrants would come. I mean, America's economy has been in decline for years, their healthcare is horrendously expensive, property tax is high (my uncle's property tax is US$10,000 a year in california but he says all his new immigrant friends want to buy property in the USA). I am sure they can buy very nice properties back home and not pay such high property tax, and can then rent in the USA, but they don't want to. They want to settle in the USA.

I don't think means testing would be popular but it would be more popular than increasing taxes across the board. The basic rate taxpayers would pay nothing for healthcare under this plan. As for early retirement, I think the people who are likely to be able to afford to retire in their 50s are likely to live in Band E and above properties (though there are exceptions, my MIL's £750k terraced house is Band D; but then again someone of her age group who earned well enough to retire at 55 would probably not live in her house, my MIL only has state pension). the Boomers I know seem very keen to move into large properties despite their kids flying the nest; so perhaps they wouldn't downsize because of potential medical bills. But if they do, i can think of worse things...

An ageing population doesn't mean the young stay ;

I don't disagree & said I think we will see more of it in the UK. China have been trying to push more incentives though eg 3 child thing so I assume they will do more.

I don't think means testing would be popular but it would be more popular than increasing taxes across the board. The basic rate taxpayers would pay nothing for healthcare under this plan.

I just don't think that plan would generate enough money as the majority of people are basic tax payers.

@basketb I think increasing NI for basic rate taxpayers would generate more money but would be tone deaf considering cost of living crisis. At least with this proposal, even higher tax rate payers like my DH would not be too pissed off because he has paid for healthcare before and doesn't need a lot of it as he is relatively young.

Most people say they would be willing to pay more taxes for good healthcare but tbh for lower earners, I think that might be a considerable hardship. I don't think we can continue like this; i would rather pay for NHS healthcare than go for private for everything. I am fine with private GP appointments and simple operations, but i think the more complicated stuff would be extremely expensive.

I’m not sure how a government comingbto
piwer on the slogan ‘education, education, education’ is responsible for a decline in living standards or lack of social cohesion

Education is generally a good thing. I was a teacher then. There was suddenly lots of money everywhere you could tap into. Small class sizes. Unlike now where it’s one textbook between 3.

I think one of the reasons behind Blair’s policy was Britain had a very low number of graduates compared to the rest of the world. He believed better education would lead to better productivity and would make us equal to other countries.

like my DH would not be too pissed off because he has paid for healthcare before and doesn't need a lot of it as he is relatively young.

But what about people who aren’t young, or are disabled? Or people who had shit childhoods who rely on the NHS as bad home environment causes mental health issues, addiction issues, pain issues.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow i guess most of these people wouldn't be higher rate taxpayers. and probably disabled people would be exempt from paying charges.

Thats the thing, we can put our heads in the sand and say that the NHS should be free at the point of service. But we are actually engineering an unfair system where in future only people who can afford private healthcare will get healthcare. The rest of the people can go and wait 1 year until they drop dead. Or suffer in pain for years and years. We could have a European style insurance system and I have lived in germany before, it works well. But it costs more for the average person/low earners. the disposable income of lower income Britons is lower mainly due to private rental and high childcare fees. I would rather pay something for NHS than have to pay for private healthcare. Of course the people who can't afford it shouldn't have to pay.

The people who rely on the NHS would be screwed in future if we don't do anything because they will be like sitting ducks, they will die if they can't access private healthcare.

It's the teenagers that are the issue near me. All walk about with gloves/balaclavas, dressed in black like they're in some kind of street gang in Manchester. They're maybe 13? Roaming around stealing, breaking stuff, banging on windows, just generally causing trouble and don't care about a criminal record

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow free healthcare is useless healthcare if you can't access it. It might as well be million pound healthcare. If you have to wait 9 hours for A & E after a heart attack which is what is happening in the SW, it doesnt really matter if the healthcare is free, you wouldn't need it.

But maybe in the country you know about people are paid higher wages? So could afford it?

Sonething like a third of the population can’t afford dental charges. Imagine paying for health care too.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow under my proposed plan, only higher rate taxpayers would really be paying and it would be gradated. And even the top tier(income of £150k) wouldn't pay the full amount, perhaps 50%. I mean, my DH is a higher rate taxpayer so this plan is not favorable to us, but at the same time, I don't want to spend all our disposable income on private healthcare if we need it in future.

We pay for private dental care and private dental insurance. My last dental bill was £1000. I would have liked nhs dental care, but they were not accepting new patients. This is what would happen to NHS healthcare if we don't reform. I have to pay through the nose for private for the privilege of not dying while other people who can't afford private suffer.

The wages in my home country are higher (on par with London), but the income thresholds for means testing are lower and even for the average person, the healthcare subsidy is not 100%. But this is normal, in other countries, people don't expect healthcare to be free. They also save for it (mandatory savings scheme) and buy insurance (which is mandatory). What I am suggesting is far more generous, its 100% subsidy and no change for basic rate taxpayers.

But in the US people go bankrupt when their ‘insurance’ pays out.

I think people have too much payout in the U.K. for this. Childcare, high rents and mortgages, increasing food and power bills, subsidising children through university and then said children coming home because they can’t afford to rent or buy.

Most people are pretty squeezed including those who just hit the high tax band. My point was, that even when NHS dentistry is available a significant number of people can’t afford it.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow my home country does have 89% home ownership so i guess that reduces bills significantly! in america, there is no direct subsidy to the medical bills and the medical bills are already very high because its all privately run. Thats not the situation in the UK.

I am not sure what is the alternative then? Higher taxes, but as you said people are squeezed?

I agree with Arse, there's enough going around to save the NHS, just as there always is when something is needed. I'm just not falling for the crap we are fed by lousy right wing rags regarding the NHS. It has been broken intentionally. It isn't a side effect of Tony effing Blair or Population growth

Imagine the sudden inrush of interest to care work if those people were given career prospects and a good wage. I doubt their current reticence has anything to do with there being too many old people to care for.

I'm mid 60s - I would say 2/3 of my family and friends around my age have had emergency admission or operation . I can see exactly where the money goes.

Er what.

Clearly you never visited East or South London in the 1980s! “Cardboard city” they called it, because there were so many homeless people crammed there trying to keep warm with cardboard. Now areas that I used to be scared to walk through in daytime are relatively safe even at night time and full of cute arty cafes.

I remember the miners’ strikes, the poll tax riots, the axing of free milk for kids. I heard the Docklands bomb go off and I’ll never forget that sound. Also was in 4 different IRA-related bomb scares, plus was at Kings Cross in 2007 when those nutters blew up the train. Fun times.

I think you may be looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses a bit.

So much comes back to housing. Too much of people's income is tied up in it.

We could move to a different health model where people have insurance etc but so many people just don't have any money.