‘Provocative victim’ in school anti bullying policy

[aaaaaaaaaargggghhhhhhh]

AIBU to think that this is unacceptable?

I have just been looking at Primary Schools anti bullying policy. It says ‘Some children can be ‘provocative victims’ eg by behaving in a tiresome way which eventually triggers a response which may then be seen to be bullying.’

If you said the same about an adult in an abusive relationship it wouldn’t be ok, right? She was a ‘provocative victim’ etc.

Thoughts?

I get your point and I think the policy is open to abuse.

But I have seen this IRL with an adult. A wife who would specifically go out of her way to wind her husband up to the point where he hit her (still not saying that’s ok) - she would then use this to her advantage with many control/manipulation tactics over her children to isolate and humiliate him.

It was messed up beyond belief, and if I hadn’t seen it myself I would be thinking exactly as you are.

We've all been "wound up" in life; most of don't hit people. No matter what she did, he had the choice to walk away and didn't. So it's not excuse, IMO.

People get offended when this concept is discussed (although the phrasing in that document is a bit off, not sure about the word provocative)

But the reality is that in real life, we each contribute to the dynamic between us and so this can happen. Ive seen it in my work.

Children are unlikely to know that they're doing it and in fact some adults wouldnt really know unless they have the support to recognise how each interact with each other.

Children do do this, though. They deliberately push boundaries - flicking their pen at a child, sticking out their tongues, tapping on the back - repeatedly, despite knowing it is winding the bully up, and then they seem surprised that they get the same reaction.

The bully's reaction is never okay.
To wind a person up, knowing they will react, is also not okay.

Children do it with teachers and parents too. Pushing boundaries until you get cross. That doesn't mean the person who has reacted is a bully.

I think it's the words "tiresome behaviour" which are the odd part of the phrasing. It's like it tries to include both deliberate winding up and also still learning how to interact with others annoying behaviour.

Isolate and humiliate him? He should have gone to prison. What a repulsive post, making excuses for a violent wife-beating thug.

I have seen it play out where one child bullies the other until the other one snaps and gets caught - victim gets suspended, the provoker gets an even better laugh. Is that what they were aiming for?

If a child is persistently provoking people and is bullied, that absolutely doesn't excuse the bully, but it does mean the provoking victim's behaviour should be addressed too.

And I'm happy to go down on public record that I would absolutely hit someone in self defence if they were relentlessly tormenting me with some of the behaviours children are sometimes expected to tolerate. Honestly, some of it amounts to torture. We don't expect adults to keep their calm in all situations, nor should we.

Continued provocation IS bullying. Reacting to provocation is NOT bullying. Provocative victims are those children who do not understand that their behaviour is irritating and even distressing to others.

I think the important part here is 'response that may then be seen to be bullying'. I wouldn't necessarily see that as bullying under the normal definition of bullying but something different. In a DV context think of it as being like the victim reaching the end of their tether and reacting and then being labelled the bully. The 'provocative victim' being the actual abuser.

To push my metaphor further - sadly, if I punch someone in self defence, they are very likely to feel I was the aggressor and assaulted them.

I remember a boy who was at school with my boys, friends with DS2 for a couple of years. By god he was irritating to other kids and adults. It was weird, he had a odd presence about him, an arrogance with no talents, liked to tell everyone how wonderful he was. My DS got bullied because he was friends with him.
He went into yr7 (DS went to a different school) carrying it on...then bragging he was a black belt in karate, he wasn't..he got beaten up. Nobody was surprised. After that he did tone it down but was never popular. I often wonder what he is like as an adult.

Yes, no. Excluding someone can be classed as bullying and it can be. But it can also be really difficult for kids to include someone who they basically don't like or who winds them up or who is unkind to them.

This, one child relentlessly is winding up another child to then pull the wide eyed sad face when the other child eventually snaps! Thinking of the standing over someone hand in face etc with the 'not touching you, you can't get mad' rubbish.

We used to call it ‘pushing someone’s buttons’, when a child repeatedly sought out negative attention.

Typical examples:
child a is autistic, triggers are noise and touch
child b repeatedly touches a for no reason, or waves hands around their face, then runs to staff with minor injuries frequently.
attempts to keep them separate are thwarted by child b.
parents of b are livid at school for injuries. It’s hard to prove the actions of b as they are not a trigger for other children nor to they leave a make or stand out easily to spot.

child a struggles with learning, child b looks down on them. Child b mocks a, a is reactive physically. Child b is able to be subtle, child a has little self restraint

child a constantly tells tall tales, unbelievable. Child b is fixated on getting the truth out and won’t let it drop each time. Friendships get affected.

It’s really really hard to unpick as a teacher, especially once parents are on social media or other parents are joining sides. All they present is ‘my child leaves school ever day with marks!’ Etc. The child then sometimes either thrives on the attention, or it becomes ingrained.

I have waffled. But I’d say in 15 years of primary teaching I’ve seen 2 or 3 cases of bullying where the bullying was straightforward bullying targeted at an individual.

Most kids are actually decent, many kids are mixed up, confused ore letting out hurt in complex ways.

Some children do deliberately wind up other children that they know will lash out.

Then parents complain about their child being hit (understandable) but never focus on what their child's part was.

Tapping and getting on personal space seem to be the biggest triggers of this in my school.

There is a difference between hitting and bullying though. Both are wrong but they are not the same. Hitting is not necessarily bullying unless part of a campaign of targeted violence. Imo bullying requires deliberate, persistent behaviour (which can be physical or verbal) aimed at isolating, humiliating or intimidating the victim. I would not put lashing out in frustration in this category. That does not mean that violence isn't always wrong and shouldn't be punished severely, but I don't think that it always counts as bullying. You need the intent there.

I agree also that it is often the victim of bullying who lashes out after repeated taunting (and is specifically targeted because the bullies know they will get a response). Then they are blamed and punished for that response. In adults, violence is always inexcusable... adults should have self-control and can always walk away from a situation. But I have some sympathy for child victims of bullying provoked to violence, since children lack maturity, are much less able to regulate their emotional responses and often don't have the option of walking away (e.g. when the bullying is happening in a school environment and there is no escape or safe place from the bullies).

Thanks for the responses.

Interesting to hear different perspectives.

I agree that the ‘tiresome behaviour’ is an interesting choice of words. Can’t all children be tiresome at times? Most adults too come to think of it. I think it gives the Head Teacher’s attitude towards children away a bit.

I read the policy because we have been a bit ‘meh’ about the school’s response. Having read the policy I feel even more disheartened.

What's been wrong with the schools response?

The HT has a realistic attitude towards children imo.

Yes all children can be tiresome at times. And all adults. But children within a class can deliberately create issues for “fun” and to see “reactions” because they are immature/bored/hemmed in together in a way that adults would be far less likely to. A class dynamic is quite different.

There are children who very much enjoy the attention of being the “victim”, quietly provoking and waiting for the reaction then running to the teacher to get the person into trouble who reacts. It happens quite a bit with year 7 boys actually, as they establish their pecking order.

A development of this can be Child A doing the provoking - often quite underhand, Child B getting angry and hitting Child A, or pushing Child A, then Child A hitting back, saying how Child B started fighting him or started “the fight” and he was “just defending himself” and Child A’s parents believe their child is totally innocent. Some children enjoy the excitement of a fight and will do whatever they can to provoke one, while ensuring they remain the “innocent party”. I think this might have been what he was getting at.