Please help me with your objective thougts....

[tornintwo]

I will try to tell my tale without bias, so you can please give me your thoughts without prejudice.

Two couples live in a house. Couple 1, "The Owners", own the property. Couple 2 "The lodgers" live in the house in exchange for work in the house which is also a B&B (big house).

The Owners sold a portion of land to the lodgers over a year a go for a nominal sum, so that the lodgers could obtain planning consent to build a house for the lodgers to live in.

The Owners never completed the legals, but kept the money.

The lodgers paid all the fees to architects, surveyors etc and after much work obtained planning permission for their dream home.

The Owners now want to sell the whole property, giving the lodgers the value of the plot now it has consent.

The lodgers still want to build the house, but are happy for the owners to sell the exsisting house.

The owners say they will not be able to sell the house while building is in progress, so the lodgers should find somewhere else to build the new house.

What do they do?

The owners and the lodgers are related, which is why it's tricky and hard to be objective.

HELP PLEASE. I would like your thoughts and maybe a bit of legal opinion should it come to that. The sale papers were drawn up when the money changed hands, but it was never completed.

Could you agree to wait until the house is sold before building?

Is it too late to get the papers completed?

I think it is completely unfair to agree something, keep the money and now say no build your house somewhere else.

You will definitely need legal advice.

What rosylily said. Clearly The Owners are in the wrong, but difficult to see a good way through this other than waiting... Clearly, will still impact on The Owners sale price if it is know that there is going to be building on the site, though...

Maybe chase up the papers being completed, try to keep options open for as long as possible...jolly them along whilst getting all your rights sorted. I'm sure everyone will not want to fall out.

it's in both the owners and lodgers interests to sort this out. are the owners looking to sell all they legally own? if so then the land they are selling includes the planning permission. if they are only selling part of the land ie excluding the bit the lodgers morally own then the planning permission will be excluded.

this is going to be complicated to explain to a purchaser when their legal search will not show the details of the transaction between the owners and the lodger. If i were looking to buy it there's an enormous difference between buying a house and land with planning permission and just buying the house, particularly if planning permission has been granted over the land.

you should also know that anyone can apply for planning permission, you don't have to be the owners of the land to do so. what this means is that the lodgers have put in the time, effort and expense to increase the value of the plot without any legal right to any of it. given the family relationship i doubt this was the intent of the owners but it does seem to be the outcome.

i think the best thing would be to complete the legal formalities for the earlier sale of land and then let the owners do what they want with their bit and the lodgers do what they want with theirs.

THANK YOU. I'm the daughter of the owners, and can't see the moral wood for the trees. DH wants to build, I want to build, but I love my parents and don't want to fall out. But, as my BIL said, if you sell the alloy wheels off you car, then your car will be worth less money. You can't change your mind when those wheels get sold for a profit having been restored!

The difficult bit is the B&B angle. It's really hard work, and with another season approaching they want out. Having said that, it might take 2 years to sell, and we'll have done nothing, and missed a great opportunity.

Thank you for your thoughts, I need to know I'm not being selfish and blinkered.

I've left a message for my solitor to call me back.

We could wait to build, or Mum did suggest getting all the overlapping groundworks done asap so it's clearer to potential purchasers of the exsisitng house what the impact will be.

Another point is that when we've built the house we could sell for a much bigger profit and not have to pay capital gains tax if we stay for more that a year (I think, I'm no expert!). It is an amazing plot, we've actually lived in my parents loft for 2 1/2 years to get to this stage because it's a lovely site. For us to walk away would be soul destroying.

first thing you should do is seek an injunction to at least stop the property being sold from under you while you sort out the whole mess

Thanks, but it won't come to that will it?????

I'm off to collect 4dd's then riding lessons, so I'll check back this evening.

Thank you all for your help.

It seems to me like the root of the issue is your parents desire to get out of the business as soon as possible which is understandable. So I would say that the only way that you will get your house and still have a good relationship with them is if you can make it possible for them to stay until the house is built. Do you know why are so desparate to get out? Is there some way that you can offer to take on more of the B&B responsibility so that they are less stressed about having to move out quickly? What is the quickest that you could get the building work done if they were supportive?

did you know before all this came up that your parents hadn't completed the legal work? what was going on there do you think? were they just being scatty and irresponsible, or were they already having second thoughts?

of course you don't want to fall out with your parents - but they are the ones who have created the potential for a falling-out, by not doing what they said they would.

FWIW, this time last year I put in an offer on a house knowing that the then-owners were retaining part of the plot to build themselves a dream house on it. I didn't have any reservations about doing so, and it hasn't been a problem in any way - though I did already know and like them, and admit I might not have gone into such an arrangement without that prior relationship.

you really should register your interest IMMEDIATELY at the Land Registry

that means that any potential purchaser would be alerted to the fact that something had happened, ie there had been a deal, whilst you sort it out.

it would also affect a mortgagee; there is nothing to stop the land owners from re-mortgaging the whole land at the moment.

I already work 7 days a week when we've got guests, even if they could easily cope without me, I still work. I used to work in catering before kids, but they don't believe I have anything useful to contribute other than my labour. It's frustrating, because they make heavy work out of the simplest tasks. I will work as hard as ever, but frankly I can't do much more. My husband helps out at the weekends, even though he works all week, and he does odd jobs too. We won't have a holiday because we can't take the kids out of school (not allowed by head) and I HAVE to work every single day. Last summer holidays I had five days off because my parents chose to close the B&B to go to a wedding.

They are fixated on the idea that the house will be worth a minimal amount without the land, and that we are stitching them up! The minimal amount they are refering to is still quite a lot more than they paid for the house initially.

Oh dear, listen to me go on!

I will talk to the solicitor tomorrow to protect our future.

The house will be a kit house, and should be done by July, so it's not forever.

They didn't complete the sale because in the eighties when the house was changed into a hotel/restaurnt/bar one of the planning clauses stated that there had to be a car park, which is where the new house will be. Mum was convinced that if they sold us the car park, they would be sued by the council for breach of planning, even though it is now a five bed B&B with no other facilities on offer. We just gritted our teeth and plodded on with our application because that would supercede the old consent. They promised that they would complete the sale when we got planning permission, but haven't. Now I am questioning their motives.

Looks like you have been taken for granted. There is the potential for a better life for you once they move away...I definately think that one way or another it's time you had space from your parents. Good Luck!