Any Parking Ticket experts out there?

[ParkingApp3al]

Name changed for obvious reasons. I have had my appeal against a parking ticket rejected, and need to decide whether to appeal further.

Parking ticket is £70 reduced to £35 if paid in 14 days. If I opt to go for appeal there is no half-way option. I would have nothing to pay if I win, £70 if I lose.

I parked in a permit holders only bay because I misunderstood the sign right in front of the space where I parked my car.

As per the photo, the sign says permit holders only Mon-Fri, & pay at machine on Saturdays. I parked in the space on a Sunday. For context, all the public car parks in town are free on Sundays and as Sundays were not mentioned on the sign, I took this to mean this car park was also free and that it was OK to park there.

The council have rejected the appeal and sent me a photo of a small sign on an adjacent building which says the spaces are for permit holders only at all times.

My argument is that it is not reasonable to look for a sign somewhere else in the car park, when there is a sign right in front of where you are parked. Surely, It would be simpler to have a sign that just says permit holders only?

So to the jury.

AIBU and should I pay the reduced fine?

Or AINBU and is this worth taking to further appeal?

At first I was with you, however it's clear (ish) that the sign applies to unnumbered bays only so if you were parked in a numbered bay then you correctly were issued the fine.

This is why I scrutinise signs when I park. It's not that clear at first glance but unfortunately you are in the wrong.

You need to establish if you were in a numbered bay or not. No point in appealing if you can’t clarify where you parked. If you were in a numbered bay and it was clearly numbered then I’m not sure “unclear” signage will win an appeal. I’ve successfully appealed private parking fines but probably wouldn’t bother appealing a council one if I had failed to follow the rules

I think I'd pay the £35. Sometimes it's not worth the effort. I do feel you have a case but it's a risk. Good luck if you decide to appeal again.

@ParkingApp3al

PAY the £35, and THEN appeal. Do NOT refuse to pay as it escalates really quickly!

I’d pay the £35 if you parked in a numbered bay. The sign you parked beneath clearly relates to unnumbered bays. I’d have assumed as you did if I was in an unnumbered bay but not in a numbered one.

You know where you parked. Go back and see if it is a numbered bay. The photograph if evidence whiny who the number if it’s under your car.
Numbered bay: pay the fine
Not a numbered bay: appeal

If the council are relying on that sign which is located in a building behind you parked then they are being unreasonannble.

Can you ask them for the evidence that you were parked in a numbered bay?

I’d pay the £35 and appeal it at the same time- nothing to lose then.

If they have evidence you were parked in a numbered bay then pay it. If they don’t then appeal.

You can appeal their decision. My DH took his all the way to tribunal (all by correspondence) and won. I think you have a strong case!

I think the use of numbered and unnumbered bays and having two signs that aren't next to each other detailing the two different sets of rules that apply is very poor communication. But I doubt you'd win if they can show you parked in a numbered bay.

You might try it on and say you were in an unnumbered bay and see if they fold. They are supposed to prove you were parked improperly which they haven't done if they don't have a photo of you showing it was numbered. But they might have another photo somewhere and then you're left paying 70 instead of 35...

They always reject first appeal.
You need to appeal again and take it to adjudication.
If that sign was right next to where you park then it is assumed that sign is for the space you parked in.
You are not expected to walk around the building to find a sign.
Signs have to be clear and the orange bit at the top is hard to make out.
Send in the photo you took which was right next to your car. Also question them why their parking attendant didn't take photo of the signage right next to your car.
Can you post the images they took.
This seems like a clear case of unclear/ unfair signage. I think all information that portrays the restrictions need to be in black writing.

You can even pay the reduced rate and say to want to appeal and go to adjudication and this will be refunded at adjudication.

Go on pepipoo forum. they help with council PCN.

A million years ago I worked as a traffic warden. This entirely depends on if you were in a numbered bay or not! The signs are clear (technically, they are clear. It might have been easy to misinterpret them in a rush etc but they actually clearly state what is and isn't allowed and don't contradict each other). If you were in a numbered bay, I'd pay up. If not, absolutely appeal.

I’d appeal and I think that you’d have a decent chance. Even if you were in a numbered bay, they shouldn’t have a sign for unnumbered bays right next to it and the sign for numbered bays somewhere bit further away and not easy to spot. All of the information should be on one sign. It looks to me as though the numbered bays restrictions were brought in later and the council have tried to save money by not doing the signs again. If you do appeal/ fight it you’ll need to hold your nerve- one parking company kept writing to me for a year with stupid standard letters saying they could appoint a bailiff (they couldn’t) before they backed down. Also ask for full disclosure from the council about when each zone was brought in and when the signs went up.

@DropYourSword

A million years ago I worked as a traffic warden. This entirely depends on if you were in a numbered bay or not! The signs are clear (technically, they are clear. It might have been easy to misinterpret them in a rush etc but they actually clearly state what is and isn't allowed and don't contradict each other). If you were in a numbered bay, I'd pay up. If not, absolutely appeal.

Reading the first sign, can a non permit holder park there on a Sunday? @dropyoursword

The sign you parked in front is clear. It says "unnumbered bays" so was not relevant to you as you were parked in a numbered bay. You should have looked for the sign related to numbered bays. It was your error for not reading the sign.

Reading the first sign, can a non permit holder park there on a Sunday? @dropyoursword**

As per the first sign @Indigoo03 anyone can park there on a Sunday without charge

I'd be really pissed off but I'm often confused with all the different rules of parking and have moved my car when unsure. For £35 I couldn't be bothered to take this any further tbh. I would maybe send some pics and a note to the local paper/social media to see if they can change the signs to make it clearer. Ie. Add that numbered bays always have to be paid..because then you would check if it was numbered.

Sorry, numbered bays are for permit holders only at all times

Thanks again for the replies. Unfortunately, I can't pay the reduced rate then appeal, as by paying the reduced rate I would have to accept responsibility.

Looking online 56% of further appeals are successful, but would have to pay the full penalty if I lose.

As you were in a numbered bay you need to pay, that part on the sign is clear although the positioning is obviously unfortunate.

My DH's adjudicator used the "reasonable person" test. I.e. would a reasonable person read that sign and assume that it was okay to park there. That's why I think you have a chance.

Does the appeal go to an external body? If yes then maybe phone them first for their thoughts. I say this bw issue I got a ticket for Birmingham air pollution zone but thought the signs weren't good. The council rejected me but the appeal was external, I phoned and they told me there had been loads and loads of complaints so it was worth appealing, and I got a letter back supporting my appeal.
You're on dodgy ground as you were in a numbered bay, but the signage is confusing as why put that by numbered bays, put a sign saying never park in numbered bays

The signage has to be clear and if the bay you parked in had the sign you've posted above it's not clear. (If it was you'd have a unanimous MN verdict). I wouldn't pay that.

The signage is clear. It specifies numbered and unnumbered bays.