Ambulance and A&E performance drop to lowest levels on record

[JC544D]

Ambulance and A&E performance drop to lowest levels on record

Are I being unreasonable in saying that this is the worst that we can ever remember it?

I used to think that if you called an ambulance in an emergency, that they would come rushing. That's what the emergency services are for.

Sadly, I don't think that this is any longer the case. It feels that today, you are just going to have to wait, if they even turn up at all. The same applies to the other emergency services.

What happened?

Oh are you blaming immigrants?

@portionplate

Oh are you blaming immigrants?

It's down to both an aging population and migration. According to national statistics, the main driver behind population growth is migration to the U.K. www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/overviewoftheukpopulation/2020#migration-to-the-uk-has-been-the-main-driver-of-population-growth-since-the-1990s

Well my GP is almost impossible to get an appointment with (I literally had to cry down the phone to get an appointment after none in two years recently). I tried the pharmacy and I queued for an hour. The queue at our pharmacy is regularly out the door, only to be told I'd need to come back later. I came back later another hour long queue only to be told I can't even have the medication.
So now I will have to try my GP yet again but who knows if I'll even get through.

No one is acknowledging that in some parts of the U.K. the NHS is done.

@Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious

This was taken from the migration observatory

...In the principal projection the cumulative net inflow of new migrants after 2018 accounts for 73% of total population growth by 2028, and 84% by 2043. If one also includes in the calculation the impact of future migration on births and deaths, the total contribution of migration (direct plus indirect) is slightly higher, at 79% by 2028 and 86% by 2043

Immigration is a huge problem in the U.K. and does need to be more controlled than it currently is if we are to allow people who have no choice but to live here (I have tried to move abroad & it's very very difficult to get a place anywhere, far more difficult than it is to come into the U.K.).

I am not 'anti immigrant' but I am not happy that services I have paid for through taxes and then can't access are being taken away from people like me because they are too busy to cope. In the U.K. private healthcare is dire because the nhs exists. On top of this everyone pays NI towards it and anyone with private healthcare has to pay that on top. Making private healthcare extremely expensive and not even that great.

My dh was told by our private healthcare he'd have to wait 20 days for an mri on his brain recently. Once you start getting private hospitals totally overloaded then we're going to start seeing death levels rise not just a&e unable to cope.

I think it's down to several factors:

When first created the NHS wasn't designed to deal with everything. Certain things were covered, other things weren't. For example, breast reconstruction following cancer, C Sections and births that previously would have been home deliveries etc. I'm not saying this is wrong - they should be covered - but it does cost more than decades ago. Hence more money needed.

People using it for problems they used to just solve at home. I see tonnes of patients for problems I myself have had over the years and I didn't go see a health professional. I googled it, or asked my mum/nan/dad/grandfather/friend. Lack of community and passed on knowledge perhaps?

People are living longer so more health problems, but also having no one to care for them. People have to have two incomes to one household to survive nowadays - they can't afford to give up work to care for elderly relatives like people (normally women) used to. Also less shame in not caring for family members - previously you would have been shamed for not caring for a relative evens if that relative was an arsehole who didn't deserve your help. Less free labor available.

On the plus side, due to health and safety less accidents than before. However this again means more people living longer and then needing treatment for chronic health problems that cost more in the long run.

Not enough staff at hospitals - Working conditions not great for the pay. Healthcare workers not supported enough when patients are horrible to them.

How we fix it? Not sure but we could fund healthcare degrees to get more medical staff instead of charging people tens of thousands to qualify AND get treated like shit at the end of it. Teach basic first aid/healthcare in schools - maybe instead of the useless PCSE slots we had at school before where I'm sure I just watched tv most of the time. Proper support for healthcare workers and more flexible work hours to encourage people to the job.

Getting people to live healthier and take care of themselves is going to be a bigger problem to tackle - major societal reform will be needed for that. Hard to be healthy when 2 incomes only affords you the cheap crap food and no spare time to prepare healthy meals or exercise etc. Mental health problems also become worse with increased work hours and social media etc. Fixing the NHS isn't going to be easy.

@choppitychipchop immigrants contribute more to the treasury than they take away in services..plus I have private healthcare (which is why I got a GP appointment on a Sunday). Non EU immigrants who are not family members of EU citizens have to be sponsored by employers and in most decent companies, private healthcare is a bare minimum. DH has had private healthcare in every company he has joined to the point he considers it a basic right and doesn't even bother asking if it is in his benefits package!

@applewhitenights people living longer and having bad diets is the case in other countries too but they don't have 12 hour wait times for a & e. My sister is a doctor in a country with an ageing population too and that certainly isn't the case! The system there is that people are made to save 8% of pay for healthcare, there is mandatory health insurance and also 80% subsidies plus 100% subsidy for the very poor.

@desiringonlychild2022 where did you get your facts from? I have articles that different from what you say? That eu immigrants often pay tax but non eu immigrants do not. It is not such a simple picture and in the U.K. you have to do your research to find facts only to find that the statistics on how many people are even in the U.K. are often wrong and tend to be revised (upwards) after things like a census or brexit also had people scratching their heads at how they'd got the numbers so wrong.

Also in other countries including in Europe, contractors are hired vs permanent relocations being required by forms of jobs only being given to a 'foreigner' when absolutely required in an area, this helps prevents an ever over populated ageing population whilst offering skills that are needed.

Our local hospital has started what they call “boarding beds” to try and clear space in a&e. It means if someone needs admitting from a&e and there’s no beds in the wards rather than clogging up a&e they are taken to the ward on a “boarder bed”.

They are then left in the ward walkway (by the toilets), no curtain, no privacy, no dignity, lights on all night and most importantly no call bell! They can be there for a day or two! Terrible.

And obviously means the nurses have more patients to care for than the actual max capacity of the ward.

@Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious I'm aware of that but the poster I was relying to seemed to think older people had no impact. And in the context of the NHS an ageing population matters.

@choppitychipchop www.ucl.ac.uk/economics/about-department/fiscal-effects-immigration-uk

Immigrants from outside the EU countries made a net fiscal contribution of about £5.2 billion, thus paying into the system about 3% more than they took out. In contrast, over the same period, natives made an overall negative fiscal contribution of £616.5 billion.

For tier 2 work visas, unless it was a shortage occupation, you have to prove that the vacancy couldn't be filled by a native. Also the NHS is also staffed by lots of immigrants. My colleague has to pay 10k for visas for her family of 4 to get ILR. You can see why that is not attractive to a foreign nurse hence more staff shortage in the NHS..

People are living longer so more health problems, but also having no one to care for them. People have to have two incomes to one household to survive nowadays - they can't afford to give up work to care for elderly relatives like people (normally women) used to. Also less shame in not caring for family members - previously you would have been shamed for not caring for a relative evens if that relative was an arsehole who didn't deserve your help. Less free labor available.

I read an interesting piece that since the 40s the UK have become far more individualistic & future generations have been raised that way. So in other countries you live with or at least near family to help with childcare & getting older. Here it's normal to live somewhere else & outsource childcare & care. I don't think it's about shame, for most it's just not even feasible.

@choppitychipchop as an immigrant, I can tell you that my plan is to stay in the UK only during my healthy years where I need minimal healthcare and which can be covered by private..when I am older and have more chronic illnesses, I would prefer to return to my home country where the system is better so would not be costing the NHS a significant amount of money. I feel sorry for native Brits, they are sadly stuck with the NHS in whatever form and have no ability to move. I have spoken to other immigrants who too prefer to return to their home countries when they are older/have health problems. Cos most countries have better healthcare than the NHS!

It's such a multifaceted problem it's going to take a miracle to fix

1. Underfunded for decades
2. Brexit = loss off trained staff
3. GPS not seeing people also loss of staff and underfunded
4. Elderly population
5. No beds in care homes
6. Covid
7. SOME People using emergency services unnecessarily Education needed.
8. Covid sickness amongst staff
9. Staff burnout so sickness long term.

What a list to sort out!!!!

Free at the point of use health care is a disaster. Even a nominal fee would stop some these time wasters.

So many think their health is something that happens to them rather than something they need to invest time in. It’s disastrous. We are headed for a survival of the fittest scenario.

Our population is expected to decline in the next few years. And obviously the demographics have changed. with an increased dependency ratio. We either need more immigrants (& we do have a skills shortage) or much higher taxes/insurance.

OP, do you not keep up with politics or watch the news? A myriad of reasons explaijn this omnishambles in nhs, ambulance, social, police and fire services. It's only partly to do with lack of funding, after all, even the Labour govt, who introduced the nhs, realised 2 years after inception, that it was going to cost far more than they thought, hence introducing prescription and dental charges in 1950
So, do some research, and ask some staff what their staffing numbers are, how many hours over the end of their shift they have worked, what their pay is like, how they cope with not having time for breaks -even to change a tampon, what it's like to have to come in on their day off to cover sickness, why they are falling ill with covid...

Then when you've thought about all those thing, think the response a public sector worker might feel about your attitude

@portionplate I have a cousin in my home country who has special needs. Her brother was expected to care for her for life but refused, he is already supporting his divorced mum who is moving in with him and his wife (3 bed flat). I had to reshuffle the seating plan at my wedding cos some relatives didn't want to sit next to such a person!

In an aibu on Mumsnet, you can imagine the responses if a poster said that she has to have her mil move into her 1000 sq feet flat, let alone the SIL. Even if it was a 5 bed mansion, responses would be similar. Well that means that even the people who can afford it don't care for their relatives so the state has to pick up the responsibility... And that costs money.

Maybe the obesity crisis isn’t such a bad thing on a population level.

yep you see it all the time on the childcare posts too. My parents are immigrants & I help them & they help me.

Also the cost of living crisis/house affordability means even fewer children will be born.
And for today's young how attractive is the future here, they will be paying high uni fees, high rents, higher taxes, saving for a pension that they may never see as retirement age will be higher despite life expectancy going backwards. They may never afford a house etc. Why wouldn't the future doctors go to another country with better pay & opportunities. I think we will see more young emigrating which will compound the whole issue.

Then when you've thought about all those thing, think the response a public sector worker might feel about your attitude

Are you saying that no one can question the fact the NHS is falling apart and people can't access healthcare, in case it hurts the feelings of NHS employees? It's clearly not doing them any favours to pretend this is all fine and sustainable!

@MyNameIsAngelicaSchuyler

Maybe the obesity crisis isn’t such a bad thing on a population level.

On a thread about ambulances services that just isn't funny.

Obesity definitely will not improve ambulance staff retention or response times, or the longevity of the suspension systems on our ambulances!!

@QuebecBagnet

Our local hospital has started what they call “boarding beds” to try and clear space in a&e. It means if someone needs admitting from a&e and there’s no beds in the wards rather than clogging up a&e they are taken to the ward on a “boarder bed”.

They are then left in the ward walkway (by the toilets), no curtain, no privacy, no dignity, lights on all night and most importantly no call bell! They can be there for a day or two! Terrible.

And obviously means the nurses have more patients to care for than the actual max capacity of the ward.

Does this apply to bed bound patients who can't get up & walk to the toilet??

Their performance is fine.

The trouble is too many calls on them.