Nearly half of teachers plan to quit in the next 5 years

[freebritknee]

I saw this from a survey carried out by an education union.

Unmanageable workload is a significant factor.

This is madness how have the unions allowed the state of teachers employment to get this far where nearly half of them want out?!

@noblegiraffe

My school should be training an enthusiastic young maths teacher this term but isn’t because of a shortage of trainees. Despite the salary, pension, holidays, and £24k tax free bursary, they couldn’t fill the places on the course.

24k tax free bursary AND if you do the pgce uni route you can also claim up to £12667 maintenance loan, so £36667 TAX FREE to train to be a teacher (equivalent to a gross salary of £49,000). Only have to teach 100 hours throughout they year as well. Just for the one year though and then you drop to earning just 25k once qualified. I’ve considered this option many times, I’m the ideal candidate - maths degree and 5years experience in a secondary school as a TA. I never ever have any intention of becoming an actual teacher though due to the micromanagement and all the additional work. Still, I sometimes consider the pgce for the money.

I can’t think of any other career that pays you more when your training then it does once your qualified. Usually you get the pay rise after qualification 🤔

I sometimes consider the pgce for the money.
I have had trainees on placement who are very open about the fact that they're doing it for the bursary. They never intend to teach once they've finished the course.
It's a HUGE flaw in the system.

My SS primary school teachers regularly take physical assault from the kids and just are expected to have it happen. There is a boy in my SS class that has sen and will lash out at the teacher and pull her hair, throw chairs at her (as well as the kids) Same in my elder sons secondary, teachers regularly having things chucked at them etc.

Not once when I was young did I see anyone assault a teacher. Crazy really.

I’m wondering whether all those who work in the private sector, or in the corporate world, or in other areas of the public sector, really understand the day to day life of a teacher.

How many of those are verbally abused by a variety of people - children, parents, etc on a daily basis? How many are wrestled to the ground by a student out of control? How many are accused of lying about a child.?How many are subjected to physical abuse? Not occasionally, but on a regular basis.

Not once when I was young did I see anyone assault a teacher. Crazy really

When I was at school (decades ago). A kid told a teacher to “fuck off” Absolute scandal, parents involved, weeks worth of detentions. It didn’t happen again.
It’s a daily occurrence for teachers at most secondary schools (possibly primary schools too).

It’s not really a pay issue (although I wouldn’t say no to more pay).

If the government could fix it by throwing an extra £5k at every teacher, they probably would.
It’s a conditional issue.

Classes are too large.
Planning and prep time is no where near enough.
Behaviour is awful.
Workload and expectations are huge.

It’s not going to get fixed because it costs too much money to fix.

@toomuchlaundry

But surely an out of subject teacher is no better than a non qualified teacher if you are looking at a GCSE or A-level class?

That was Gove's logic Morgan's too.

A decade on and it has solved nothing. The system is still crap, puts pressures on staff that have bugger all to do with teaching, leaves all but the average kid unsupported and is just shite all round.

But some of you need to actually LISTEN to what teachers past and present are telling you. The money isn't the issue. The holidays aren't the issue. To be frank the hours done at home aren't always the issue. The soul sapping, attainment, tick boxing, ever changing, never sane and sensible, never given enough time the bed in before being replaced stupidity from the DofE, government is the problem.

That and an ever increasing % of students and parents who use phrases like "we pay your wages" or expect the teacher to magic up work ethics in a kid who has no role model for studying, who complain about too much, not enough support, homework etc. Those who generally sit back and look, as if to say "well where is it?" far outnumber those who ask what they, they kid, can do, who expect to receive the road map but not a fucking sat nav to succeed.

When teachers of all age groups, all sectors, all subjects are telling you, the government, the system is fucked and we can no longer hold it together, I would expect better than "fuck off, you are well paid, get great holidays and teaching isn't that hard" as a response.

Teachers = drowning, not waving.

@Lorw

Sad isn’t it? My son (Y7) told me last week multiple children were making paper planes and just chucking them at the art teacher until she eventually just sat there and cried.

It’s why they add “resilience” to teaching and support staff job specs. Except that word is now just code for “is okay with being abused and humiliated on a daily basis”.

It’s a shame people done value teachers as much as nurses. I come from a family of nurses who have worked hard on a daily basis but they don’t have to put up with repeated bouts of humiliation or public contempt.

@Lorw

My SS primary school teachers regularly take physical assault from the kids and just are expected to have it happen. There is a boy in my SS class that has sen and will lash out at the teacher and pull her hair, throw chairs at her (as well as the kids) Same in my elder sons secondary, teachers regularly having things chucked at them etc.

Not once when I was young did I see anyone assault a teacher. Crazy really.

When did you leave school?

@MrsHamlet

I sometimes consider the pgce for the money. I have had trainees on placement who are very open about the fact that they're doing it for the bursary. They never intend to teach once they've finished the course. It's a HUGE flaw in the system.

It’s even worse for ex-military personnel who get a £40k tax-free bursary for training. To then end up on mps, it’s ridiculous.

Even after pgce there is the option to become supply instead as a career choice. Walk in, deliver the lesson which someone else has planned and resourced, the. Walk out at 3.30 with no additional responsibilities. Lots who train don’t become class teachers, which is bad enough when even training places can’t get filled.

The soul sapping, attainment, tick boxing, ever changing, never sane and sensible, never given enough time the bed in before being replaced stupidity from the DofE, government is the problem.
This, in spades.

I never witnessed teachers getting assaulted. Can’t think of one occasion.

Bad behaviour at times yes but nothing like it is now.

I’m 33 and I went to my local comp which is in a deprived area, so I’m hardly a dinosaur.

[quote Tulipblacksmith]@Lorw

Sad isn’t it? My son (Y7) told me last week multiple children were making paper planes and just chucking them at the art teacher until she eventually just sat there and cried.

It’s why they add “resilience” to teaching and support staff job specs. Except that word is now just code for “is okay with being abused and humiliated on a daily basis”.

It’s a shame people done value teachers as much as nurses. I come from a family of nurses who have worked hard on a daily basis but they don’t have to put up with repeated bouts of humiliation or public contempt.[/quote]
Nobody wants to go to work as a teacher to be physically and verbally assaulted, neither should they, yet they are expected to just take it cause they are kids.

My eldest SSs teacher has been threatened with rape, violence etc, have those boys who made those threats been removed from her class, nope. I honestly don’t know how she’s still teaching. I think it is horrific for teachers nowadays.

@Piggywaspushed if you were a classroom teacher on average salary of £38k who wanted to leave the public sector, to make up for the extra weeks you’d have to work (at the same level of pay) and the pension contributions you’d be losing, you’d need to find a job of around £55k gross. Oh and you’d also be paying more tax on that too. There’s nothing obtuse about it. If you’re a SLT level teacher on 55k as someone else suggested, then you’d factor that up to roughly 77k equivalent.

This is an interesting piece of modelling from the ONS on overall public v private sector remuneration.

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/publicandprivatesectorearnings/2019

The article has considered public sector earnings premium variations for similarly skilled occupational groups by organisation size and by industry grouping. The results based on total remuneration showed that, on average, employees in the public sector received a larger remuneration package than their counterparts in the private sector in almost every occupation grouping regardless of company size

@noblegiraffe I’ve no doubt that people are leaving because they don’t like the conditions, whether that’s because they’ve changed over time or because they weren’t as the employee had expected. The same reason applies for people who are leaving private sector jobs in droves too.
However, that doesn’t change my point which is that teaching is not a low paid profession. Undervalued? In some cases absolutely. Low paid? No.

@noblegiraffe

Yes it is a different, but related question, Sonic.

If the pay is good, what is it that means we have a critical shortage of teachers? In your opinion.

Yes, and @SonicBroom said she is an ex-teacher. So despite the high pay, she also chose to leave. Why?

I think the point that’s sad about this is that for many people, there is no level of pay at which it makes some of the conditions that people experience ok. And again this applies to all jobs when your boundaries have been pushed. If you were to put a price on it then a) what would the price be and b) who should pay for it?

I can categorically say that verbal and physical assaults on teachers are not a new thing.

For the most part, as horrific as they are, they are dealt with. I know not always, but usually.

Worse in a way is the relentlessness of “low level” disruption.

I never witnessed teachers getting assaulted. Can’t think of one occasion

Much more common in primary. I’ve only been in teaching 2 years.
I’ve heard of 3 assaults in the two schools I’ve worked in so far. I wasn’t actually there to witness it though.

Ex pupil breaking into school to threaten to kill a teacher (she had a class of 30 in front of her at the time).

Some pupils tried to get a teacher fired. No real reason just didn’t like her.

Lots of pens being thrown at teachers.

Lots of verbal abuse. To be fair in secondary physical assaults are relatively unusual (I’ve heard of 3 in 2 years).

I've read it sonic. No need to keep posting it. It still isn't take home pay. And teachers have still had real terms pay cuts.

Any teachers I know who have left have got jobs on the same actual pay or slightly less and swallowed the holidays. They are happier, more fulfilled, better respected and treated, and more rested. Oh, and they have longer lunch breaks!

BTW ,I have never said teaching is low paid and I am not sure noble has either.

@Tulipblacksmith

I never witnessed teachers getting assaulted. Can’t think of one occasion.

Bad behaviour at times yes but nothing like it is now.

I’m 33 and I went to my local comp which is in a deprived area, so I’m hardly a dinosaur.

So your own experience trumps various national surveys that show this does happen, especially in primary schools, especially to female staff?Threats of violence are also widely reported.

@Stellamar offs… I’ve said it so many times. I left to pursue research because I loved the subject. It’s a totally different role where I’m producing work myself rather than teaching others to produce. I get paid less, I have far less holiday, and work lots more overtime. But in return I make a contribution to society in another way, and I have more flexibility.

Verbal and physical abuse is not a new thing but certainly increasing. I now have sixth formers who are rude, entitled and down right defiant. This is the 18 year olds about to leave school!! The year 7s are most damaged by lockdown and many lack basic social skills, very poor reading and are not able to access the ks3 curriculum in any meaningful way. However, the level of abuse and disrespect levelled to me as an experienced teacher by 11 year olds is astonishing and something I have never witnessed as widespread in my career. This is part of the reason my emotional resilience has been worn down. It's hard to deal with from children but then the parents Wade in.

@SonicBroom

I think the point that’s sad about this is that for many people, there is no level of pay at which it makes some of the conditions that people experience ok. And again this applies to all jobs when your boundaries have been pushed. If you were to put a price on it then a) what would the price be and b) who should pay for it?

Exactly. Which is why there isn't any teacher saying that increasing salaries is the answer to the problem.

It doesn't matter if you think they're well-paid. They're still leaving in droves.

@Piggywaspushed you clearly haven’t read it. It doesn’t say anywhere that it’s a teacher’s take home pay ffs .

But isn't the 55k irrelevant as there is nothing the average teacher can do to make that without taking on extra responsibility. As for being on the leadership scale, forget the holidays. Our SLT regularly work through holidays and have to be in school for 4 of the 6 weeks off. Their pay and conditions are different to mps and ups.