‘If no one had children…’

[WomanStanleyWoman]

Whenever there’s a thread on MN about not wanting children, someone will inevitably pop up to say ‘Well, if no one had children, the human race would die out’ or ‘It’s all very well not wanting children, but someone has to raise the next generation - good luck getting a doctor or anyone to look after you in your old age if everyone takes that attitude’.

It shouldn’t need saying because it’s so bloody obvious, but I see this argument so often on MN that I really start to wonder. So here it is:

People are NOT suddenly going to stop having children en masse. According to Wikipedia, Mumsnet had 119 million unique users in 2018. Obviously that doesn’t equate to 119 million individuals, but it does give you an idea of how much traffic a site primarily promoted to parents gets. Even if half the active MN users are childless (unlikely), I still don’t think we need to panic about the end of the human race as we know it just yet.

Just as there are people who can have children but choose not to do so, there are people who cannot have biological children who will make huge financial and emotional investment in IVF or surrogacy. Just as there are countless people who plan to have children, there are plenty of unplanned pregnancies where the parents decide to keep the baby. People will always want and have children. They’re not like the Yellow Pages or high street retail - there won’t come a point where everyone just uses the internet instead.

So does anyone really believe ‘If no one has children, we’d be screwed’ is a valid argument? Or are these people simply just trying to justify their disapproval of the voluntarily child-free?

It shows if you were male and made it to age 20 in 1900, you could expect to live until age 63.

Exactly if you made it to 20, much fewer did than today.

Those are average whole life expectancy

How else do you measure life expectancy?

Just wish people would admit that they're not having kids as a selfless gift to society, but because they want them

*wantED!!

I think most if not all those who harp on about it are jealous of the childfree

@Orangutanteddy

The less people who have kids the better, environmentally speaking. The world is hugely overpopulated. If the human race did die out, so what? We're a violent, war-like parasitic species.

I think comments like this are quite unhappy and bitter AF. I find it odd that any childless person has time to give it a second thought. If you don't want children that is your choice and people who DO want kids it's also THEIR business.

The population will eventually decrease people are having less children .

@whoatealltheeggs

No I’m not suggesting life expectancy has not increased. I stated it has increased?
How else do you measure life expectancy...you do it using life tables.
I was adding to your post which was a bit too simplistic. The reason why life expectancy at birth was so low was because so many children never grew up. Your post makes it sound like the average adult died at 48 if a man or 52 if a woman, which is not the case.
Please follow the link I inserted. It will show you what I mean that life expectancy at birth is not the best way to demonstrate the actual increase in pensioner age adults.

@whumpthereitis

It is generally used as a defensive statement though, like there’s a greater moral component in someone choosing to have children than there actually is. People, in the west at least, have children because they want them, because they have the biological drive to.

It comes down to the fact that people lash out when they feel their life choices are being attacked. The childfree (of which I am one) do it too. I do think in many ways it is getting better for the childfree as it’s becoming less of an unusual choice. It is only relatively recently though, in the great scheme of things, that women actually have the freedom to make that choice for themselves. Those that do still face pushback and disapproval for making that choice. People been made to feel like they have to justify their perfectly reasonable life choices is invariably going to lead to them feeling utterly fucked off.

I think if the ‘childfree agenda’ is anything, it’s ‘don’t treat us as somehow lesser, quit asking us to explain ourselves, and respect our choices without passsing negative comment’. A lot of people genuinely can’t seem to comprehend that there’s no universal formula for happiness, and that that not everyone wants the same things. I don’t know if it’s lack of imagination, resentment, or ego.

This

Yabu because UK birth rate is far below replacement level.

To clarify I think having or not having children are both completely reasonable individual choices. But yes, we are trending to have not enough babies in the UK and in most economically developed countries. Disastrously low birth rates in rich city states like Hong Kong, Singapore. But also very low here and elsewhere in Western europe

Yanbu. It’s a pointless argument because it ain’t gonna happen. Most humans want children to a greater or lesser extent. There are some things nobody much fancies, but you’ve just got to get on with them because someone’s got to do it.

Having kids is not one of these. There’d be a moral dilemma about my choice not to have children if most people felt like me, but they demonstrably don’t.

@Dairymilk50 what do you find odd that any childless person has time to give a second thought. (I think you mean childfree).

Are we not meant to be concerned about overpopulation and the bleak futures for existing and future children?

I have nieces and nephews and am concerned for their future and, if they have children, those childrens' futures.

I am also concerned for the planet and the animals, plants etc on it which us lovely humans seem determined to destroy.

@SpotALeopard

Yanbu. It’s a pointless argument because it ain’t gonna happen. Most humans want children to a greater or lesser extent. There are some things nobody much fancies, but you’ve just got to get on with them because someone’s got to do it.

Having kids is not one of these. There’d be a moral dilemma about my choice not to have children if most people felt like me, but they demonstrably don’t.

I think you will find, if asked, that a huge amount of couples/women with children give very little thought as to whether or not they want children.

So many "accidents" it's untrue plus lots of couples/women have children "because it's what you do"!

No wonder so many regret it when it is too late

@veevee04

The population will eventually decrease people are having less children .

Oh FFS this has been explained over and over. If people aren't dying they don't need to be replaced. The population will continue to grow regardless of declining birth rate.

I guess that’s what I meant by to a greater of lesser extent, @mydogisthebest. The human race has done pretty well at keeping itself going through people who, even if not actively trying, aren’t too fussed. I was/am very fussed about not having children, so they were never simply going to happen to me (and I’m mightily thankful I live in a time and place where I have choice in the matter).

The planet would be a hell of a lot better off if humans did go extinct.

Fewer people having children would also be good.

It would be hard at first but give it a few generations and it would sort itself out

@EmpressCixi The reason why life expectancy at birth was so low was because so many children never grew up

I'm aware of this

Your post makes it sound like the average adult died at 48 if a man or 52 if a woman, which is not the case.

Nope, I wasn't saying that

Life expectancy at older ages has dramatically increased.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/lifeexpectancies/articles/howhaslifeexpectancychangedovertime/2015-09-09

The link you posted just has numbers on the left side & nothing else. Besides my point was population has increased because of people living longer which is true.

Are we not meant to be concerned about overpopulation and the bleak futures for existing and future children?

Are you concerned about overpopulation in the UK though because that's not down to lots of children.

Oh FFS this has been explained over and over. If people aren't dying they don't need to be replaced. The population will continue to grow regardless of declining birth rate.

Not forever it won't unless people stop dying 🤔.

Those people also assume that everyone believes the continuation of the human race is a good thing.

Fewer people having children would also be good.

But people are having less children!

It would be hard at first but give it a few generations and it would sort itself out

Well this thread explains why the government haven't done anything to mitigate the impact of the ageing population, most people seem unaware of the countries demographics.

So does anyone really believe ‘If no one has children, we’d be screwed’ is a valid argument?

No it’s just another stick with which to beat women. Each child born in the west uses up around 4 times the resources of a child born elsewhere. If you truly want to do something about the global environmental crisis, best thing is not to have children. (And don’t drive a car.)

But these two things are seen as almost a human right.

Well this thread explains why the government haven't done anything to mitigate the impact of the ageing population, most people seem unaware of the countries demographics.

This, 100%. If it wasn't for net migration, the UK population would be declining rapidly. As a result the UK demographic is changing (increasing proportion of immigrants). I'm an immigrant myself (and a mum) so I think this isn't necessarily bad: we desperately need migrants to fill shortage jobs. I am in a shortage job. But it's fascinating that i often see the same people who worry about having too many economic migrants, don't understand that the only solution is more uk-born children.

To clarify, the proportion of immigrants in the UK is low. But it is rising because of our below-replacement birth rate

Just wish people would admit that they're not having kids as a selfless gift to society, but because they want them.

I have two children and I absolutely admit this. My decision to have children was completely selfish. I wanted them. I didn’t want to go through my whole life without having that experience of being a mother. I was still in my twenties when I had them and was very naïve at that time about the environment and the impact of my bringing two extra humans into the world. If I could go back now, I might make a different choice. (And I always have to add as a disclaimer at this point that I really, really love my children and am very glad they exist).

@whoatealltheeggs

Are we not meant to be concerned about overpopulation and the bleak futures for existing and future children?

Are you concerned about overpopulation in the UK though because that's not down to lots of children.

I am concerned about overpopulation of the planet. I am also concerned about the overcrowding of the UK.

I am just so so happy that me and DH decided not to have children and as we are now both in our 60's we won't, hopefully, get to see the awful consequences of overpopulation and climate change