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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Government to ban LGB conversion therapy but not T.

38 replies

BowtieBling · 01/04/2022 08:51

Aibu to think this sounds right?
My understanding, which despite me reading a lot of the media around this today could be all wrong.
I take it to be that actions such as 'praying away the gay' and other harmful abhorrent practices are to be legally banned but the government are holding off on this being LGBT conversion therapy just now.

My understanding is that when it comes to Trans they are holding off.
Does that mean that talking therapy for those questioning their gender remains an accepted practice?
Would talking therapy come under conversion therapy?
Surely considering changing gender, facing operations, taking medication in order to change gender is helpful in the same way that therapy for other body dysmorphia exists and is accepted/encouraged for example in the case of eating disorders?

I have enabled voting

YANBU - Of course LGB conversion should be banned. The T needs more careful consideration.

YABU - Conversion therapy should be banned for all under the LGBT umbrella

OP posts:
Bloodybridget · 01/04/2022 22:08

@toconclude you're talking absolute nonsense there! Show me all the posts saying trans people shouldn't have any protection, or that they don't exist?

JaninaDuszejko · 01/04/2022 22:17

But according to Mumsnet trans people shouldn't get any legal or social protection because they don't exist

I haven't seen anyone say trans people shouldn't be covered by the equality act, as indeed they already are in this country. That doesn't mean there aren't clashes between trans and womens rights just like there are clashes sometimes between gay and religious rights. These clashes need to be decided on by public debate and legal cases. Unfortunately the TRAs believe in 'no debate'.

wasibat · 01/04/2022 22:47

toconclude :
But according to Mumsnet trans people shouldn't get any legal or social protection because they don't exist.

This is a good example of how the debate about anything to do with trans issues gets derailed and reduced. Of course Mumsnet does not say anything like what this poster claims. 'Trans people shouldn't get any legal or social protection' ; 'Trans people don't exist' ... What nonsense. Obvious nonsense.

So obvious, and such nonsense, we have to wonder what it is for. Why would anyone post such obvious nonsense?

... It happens so often, this sort of wild exaggeration, we need to ask what purpose it serves. I think it is mostly an attempt to close down reasoned discussion and debate: if you have no sensible things to say, but you still want to get your way say in getting children taking drugs to postpone puberty in an attempt to bolster claims about adult trans status it seems 'make an outrageous claim' about people standing up for children is the order of the day, in order to cover for the lack of reasoned sensible argument. Shout down the opposition?

Let us see. toconclude : do you have anything sensible to say, any arguments to make, examples to give, factual stories to tell, anything, on the subject of this thread (the split of T from LGB, we recall, in terms of proposed bans on 'conversion practices').

Anything reasoned, sensible, to conclude? Anything at all? Or do we expect from you no more than foolish nonsensical claims about those with whom you disagree?

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 01/04/2022 22:55

This
But according to Mumsnet trans people shouldn't get any legal or social protection because they don't exist 🙄🙄🙄

This hasn’t happened

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 01/04/2022 22:56

Its an outright lie

nolongersurprised · 01/04/2022 22:58

It’s a sensible move, especially for doctors who work with young people and not at all comparable to the LGB.

It doesn’t matter what the fine print says if the effect is to deter the people who can refer to gender clinics from actually asking questions. No GP or paed wants their already busy day-to-day working life being mixed up with legal mess, even if that will eventually be thrown out.

Scenario one : 14 year old girl presents with parents.
Parents : our daughter says she is attracted to girls.
Doctor: Ok. So why are you actually here to see me today? What is the problem?

Scenario two:
Parents: Our 14 year old girls says she is trans. This seemed to come out of nowhere after spending hours online during lockdown and now she’s back at school 5 of her friends say the same.
Daughter: I want puberty blockers then T then top surgery.
And if you don’t refer me I will report you.

Transition regret exists, the r/detrans site has nearly 28 thousand members and is awash with young women who were affirmed as teens and have reached their mid 20s saying, “Why did everyone go along with it so easily? I was a child”.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 01/04/2022 23:18

The issue is we were meant to have an investigation into why teenage girls are suddenly claiming to be boys at 13/14. When they are at their most awkward and discovering their sexual orientation.

The reasons are not the same as the grown men, many who have spent their entire adult lives as straight men and even fathered children before claiming they were women, but we must pretend they are the same despite being two very different demographics.

Suddenly hitting puberty and being uncomfortable with your body and the change in the way society, especially men, sees you is perfectly normal. Girls being coerced into believing puberty needs medicating or that their discomfort means they must be men is ridiculous.

A large portion of these girls are same sex attracted. Transing gay kids is conversion therapy.

As has also been pointed out, how come the adult males get to say they are trans with no dysphoria or even without making any changes at all, but the teenage girls are pushed to drugs and surgery on their perfectly healthy bodies, in order to be their true selves?

DorothyZbornakIsAQueen · 01/04/2022 23:18

I agree with the move. LGB people, do not need or want hormones and drugs to validate what they are.

But the scary amount of children being affirmed that they are born in the wrong body, need to take puberty blockers and such, is fucking scary. You don't need to affirm a 10 year old child.

Watchful waiting is the sensible approach.

At the moment, gay kids are being taught if they don't conform to gender norms, they might be trans.

They're not. They're just gay. They need time to discover and explore these feelings before being affirmed and medicalised.

DorothyZbornakIsAQueen · 01/04/2022 23:19

Transing gay kids is conversion therapy

This. In a nutshell.

nolongersurprised · 01/04/2022 23:35

It’s very telling I’m these threads as well. As soon as people start to question or discuss children transitioning posters always say - you don’t want us to exist! You want to take away our rights!

Almost as though they are trying to shut the conversation down

blameitonthecaffeine · 01/04/2022 23:43

wasibat people are wrong about their sexuality all the time, surely? Especially when growing up. Lots of people change their minds about their sexuality at all times of life. Not saying there's anything wrong with that and certainly not that conversion therapy has any place in society but I don't think it's as simple as a decision on sexuality is correct and a decision on gender identity may or may not be.

I don't think there should be legislation on talking and advice on any issue. Sometimes adults give young people bad advice. But I don't think it's fair to make that a prosecutable or sackable offence. Conversion therapy is a whole lot more than advice though, it's sinister, proactive and abusive. I didn't know it was still legal tbh.

wasibat · 02/04/2022 10:37

@blameitonthecaffeine

wasibat people are wrong about their sexuality all the time, surely? Especially when growing up. Lots of people change their minds about their sexuality at all times of life. Not saying there's anything wrong with that and certainly not that conversion therapy has any place in society but I don't think it's as simple as a decision on sexuality is correct and a decision on gender identity may or may not be.

I don't think there should be legislation on talking and advice on any issue. Sometimes adults give young people bad advice. But I don't think it's fair to make that a prosecutable or sackable offence. Conversion therapy is a whole lot more than advice though, it's sinister, proactive and abusive. I didn't know it was still legal tbh.

Thanks, blameitonthecaffeine . You may be right, in a way. But 'being wrong about one's sexuality' is very different from being wrong about whether one is trans, I think.

Yes, a child may think she is gay because she is sexually attracted to another girl, then later find she is sexually attracted to boys. That happens, sure. But the point I wanted to make was that the attraction felt is self-validating in the sense that if I feel I am attracted to someone then I am attracted to that person. So, in this sense, one cannot be mistaken about who one is attracted to.

One can, by contrast, be mistaken about being trans. The distinction, then, blends into what we might describe as overall self-description. Based on this self-validatory aspect of attraction, If someone (child or adult) tells us "I am gay", and they are sincere, it makes no sense to tell them they are just wrong. By contrast, if someone (a daughter, say) tells us "I am a boy", then their sincerity will not validate their claim, especially in the light of contemporary discourse around 'trans'. What they say might be true, but it need not be, no matter the sincerity of its utterance.

I can be mistaken about whether I am trans in a whole other sense, in other words, from any way in which I could be mistaken about being gay.

This is especially important, it seems to me, with children. We should treat a child claiming to be gay differently from a child claiming to be trans with regard to their self-description. Thus, in other words, T should be separated from LGB with regard to possible so-called 'conversion'. You might agree with this conclusion even while allowing for confusion in a child's mind about who she is attracted to as her sexuality develops.

[In a sense, of course, this point applies a fortiori to adults whose adolescent confusion about developing sexuality has settled down. It would make no sense to call a mature person's sincere avowal of her own sexuality into question: the self-description "I am gay" cannot be false if sincerely avowed, whereas many other sincere self-descriptions could accurately be described as delusive ("I am smart", "I am Elvis reincarnated" ...).

It does seem, prima facie , that sincere avowals such as "I am a man" or "I am a woman" are likely to fall into the latter category of non-self-validating self-descriptions in our contemporary discourse. That is a slightly different argument, perhaps. The very fact of this being arguable, however, bolsters the case for splitting T from LGB, given the unarguable fact that, although I may lie about my sexuality, I cannot be mistaken about it in any ordinary sense of the word.]

ChristinaXYZ · 02/04/2022 14:58

I think this thread by a transwoman on twitter on the importance of talk is important:

"If I could have found a way, through therapy, of avoiding it [surgery] I'd have gladly accepted it ..."

twitter.com/Strobe_Lightly/status/1510179485034897409

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