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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

... to ask the monthly of being a landlord ?

20 replies

catfunk · 29/03/2022 22:42

Hi everybody, hoping for some first hand experience.

My DM may be in a position in the next few years where she needs help. I live at the other side of the country, in a very popular city with a healthy rental and sales market - I always rented here until purchasing my lovely flat 2.5 years ago.

Starting to think about options, when it comes to it - one of which is to relocate back to hometown, move in with DM and rent out my flat. Will also consider selling up but want to look at all options. Mortgage is currently 1100 pcm and rental could get around 1200. I understand I may have to change the type of mortgage.

Can anybody give me a rough break down of current LL costs? Estate agent fees if managed, insurance, safety checks etc ?

Thank you for reading x

OP posts:
catfunk · 29/03/2022 22:54

Bumping hopefully 🙏

OP posts:
NeverEnoughCake2 · 29/03/2022 23:09

I'm a landlord, and have been told the rule of thumb is that your post-tax profit is 50% of rent. In general that seems about true, but I've just had a bad financial year (electrical fault plus the boiler died), so haven't even made that.

Letting agents take a % of the rent charged. I've been quoted between 8% and 15% depending on letting agent and the type of service they provide. Agents' % is higher if they manage the property for you than if they just market it, do the pre-tenancy checks organise the tenancy and collect the rent. The advantage of having a managed let is that you're not running around trying to find plumbers for a 10pm burst pipe while not in the same part of the country. The disadvantage is that the letting agents will use the contractors they're chummy with for those kinds of repairs, who may not be the best at their job or the most economical.

Inventory and check-in/out report costs vary by number of bedrooms and if the property's furnished. In London, I get charged £140 to make the inventory (only needs doing once) then it's £135 for attended check-in/out for a 2-bed. Gas safety cert would be £95. EICR is £199 + VAT. Legionella risk assessment is £127.

Insurance costs are proportionate to the value of the property, so hard to give you a figure for that. Do make sure you've got enough legal cover though. It's worth knowing that tenants who can no longer afford the rent (e.g. a relationship's broken up and one partner moved out) are currently being told by a lot of councils that they'll be considered intentionally homeless if they give up the tenancy before being evicted via the courts for non-payment of rent. If you're depending on the rental income to pay a mortgage then you need really good insurance against this situation, particularly if the rental income is close to your monthly mortgage payment.

Beamur · 29/03/2022 23:17

You'd lose money if you were only getting back £100 a month. It will cost you more than that to rent it out.
Income is taxed (some rebate against mortgage)
Possibly fees - an accountant to do your tax return
Insurance
Wear and tear
You have to make repairs promptly
Would you have reserves for something like a new boiler?
Regular maintenance
Annual gas checks
5 yearly electrical checks (and faults to remedy)

TwoBlueFish · 29/03/2022 23:20

My DH rents out 2 flats that belonged to his mum. He looses about 40% of the rental value per year in fees (10%), maintenance (25%), insurance, etc (no mortgage). The flats are older and his mum didn’t do a lot of maintenance so his maintenance costs are pretty high.

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 29/03/2022 23:29

Dont forget income tax.... which of course depends on what else you earn. You can deduct some things but not mortgage costs.
You'll need to do a tax return too.

Thursday37 · 29/03/2022 23:32

I rent my old house for £925, BTL interest only mortgage is £220, Insurance £25, Tax is about £150. I manage it myself so costs are minimal, about £100 per new tenant.
Maintenance is roughly what I spent when I lived there, with just more frequent redecoration. It varies a lot but I bank on minimum of £1k a year, but sometimes it is £0 and other times £5k. I keep a £5k float so it’s easy to budget.
Gas safety and boiler service costs me £75 annually through close family friend plumber and he deals with any issues for me. Electrical safety every 5 years is similar. House is relatively modern so not much to do, new consumer unit a while ago but not much else needed. You need an EPC every 10 years.

My net profit is roughly £500 a month. It’s topping up my income at the moment but in a couple of years I hope to not need it (high childcare costs right now).

I do need a new bathroom and kitchen in at some point but am trying to avoid it at the moment purely because trades are so hard to get right now and I haven’t had an opportunity to have it empty for long. I will do it when the next opportunity for a void arises though.

I’ve had it for a very long time though, circa 21 years so the mortgage is pretty small so it’s profitable. It was my home for 13 years, not bought as an investment.

CaperCaper · 29/03/2022 23:36

You'd likely switch to an interest only buy to let mortgage to make it work. This will reduce the mortgage costs but you will no longer be paying off the equity. I rent out my old place and I find that it more or less is breaking even over time. I'm a good landlord and everything is done to a good standard and up to spec etc. I'm on to my second lot of tenants having had the first lot wreck the place - and for that reason I manage direct rather than go through an agent.

I say look at OpenRent rather than an agent. You may need to register as a landlord with your local council and this can cost a few hundred pound. Lots of certificates will be needed too - EPC, EICR, Gas etc. If you don't have an agent you can pay for home emergency insurance and that will look after the issue of emergency plumbers etc.

Think about whether it's the right thing to do, this is your home, if it could work for you it might work out better for you to have a lodger? Explore that as I think you can still nominate your place as your residence, you'll have somewhere to stay if you want to pop back to see friends through the year or just get a break and it might work out better in terms of your mortgage and how you are taxed. I reckon cost wise there won't be that much in it, especially considering capital gains tax that will store up if you let out. If you're intending to move back I'd seriously consider this option.

If you are relocating permanently I'd sell. It is such a headache to be an 'accidental' landlord.

CaperCaper · 29/03/2022 23:41

Just to add, my agent charged 10% and a LOT for anything that needed done. I ended up organising a lot of work myself because their quotes were crazy.

CliveThighs · 29/03/2022 23:49

There are fixed costs like annual gas safety check (i think we pay around £60ish), electrical checks are now every 3 years i think (just paid £200 for this), service charge and ground rent for flat.

Insurance will vary depending on the value of the flat, the level of cover, etc, etc. Go onto a price comparison site and play with different levels of landlord cover to get a general idea for your flat. I'd definitely recommend having emergency homecare cover especially if you plan to not live nearby (e.g. if a water pipe bursts inside the wall its far far easier to get insurance to send people out to fix it immediately rather than finding an emergency plumber 200 miles away, then builders to fix everything damaged, etc - but again, this depends on what level of service youre paying estate agents for). You can get insurance to cover non payment of rent, but it will add to the overall cost.

In the next few years they are changing the EPC rules for rental properties. If your flat is a newish build with a C or above rating then it won't affect you, but if it has single glazing, old boiler, etc you'll be expected to spend money to make it more energy efficient (google the specifics, you know roughly what your flat will need doing).

Agents fees will vary, ring round to get some quotes.

I'd recommend building up a slush fund so any unexpected big costs can be covered by that.

It depends on the type of flat & tenants you have. If its the type of flat where people stay 1-2 years you may need to increase your decorating budget (fresh coat of paint before new people move in, maybe carpets), if its somewhere that will attract long term tenants then you might not need to paint as frequently.

I know I'll get utterly flamed for this as it goes against the MN vibe, but in my experience pets do cause more damage, it can be minor cosmetic (claw marks) to horrifically expensive (indoor rabbits will chew through more electrical wiring than you can imagine).

Having said all that, if you manage to get an amazing tenant who pays their rent, lets you know of any issues before they become major problems, etc then it can be pretty much plain sailing.

Saracen · 30/03/2022 00:37

What's your overall financial situation? Rental income can be quite good compared with alternative investments at the moment, but bear in mind it is high risk, with all your eggs in one basket.

For example, what happens if the tenant can't or won't pay rent? Work out how many months that would go on for before you could start eviction proceedings, how long you'd have to wait for a court date, etc. As a PP mentioned, councils won't provide emergency housing for people who leave voluntarily. The tenant is told they must sit tight and wait to be literally thrown out, which takes a long time. In theory they still owe you the rent money, but if they don't actually have any money, you'll never get it. And of course if you're a reasonably compassionate person, you WON'T proceed promptly to evict a tenant who has simply fallen on hard times. Maybe you'll start off by reducing their rent for a number of months, then eventually ask them to leave, but then they may not have anywhere to go...

If you have a decent financial cushion against such possibilities, then it may still be an attractive investment, given the property market. If not, you could find yourself in a horrible situation.

Winter2020 · 30/03/2022 01:30

Hi OP,

This is very much my layman's understanding and you should check all information before basing your decisions on it.
Assuming you let your house out with your current mortgage by getting permission to let, and assuming you are a basic rate taxpayer. You have said your mortgage is 1100 and you could get £1200 rent. Let's imagine the £100 excess is spent on insurance, maintenance etc - it would probably be more if you use an agent. Let's also guess that you are on a repayment mortgage and that 50% of your payment pays off equity and 50% pays interest. You would pay £6,600 off your mortgage and would need to pay 20% tax on this so that's £1320 tax you need to pay but for cash flow purposes that money is locked in the equity in your house so you will need to save it up in order to pay.

Now if you are a higher rate tax payer your mortgage interest is not a fully deductible expense. This also applies if the gross receipt of your rent (the £1200 × 12 = £14,400) plus your other personal income pushes you into higher rate tax payer territory. You pay 40% tax on mortgage interest and then get 20% credited back I believe so a net 20% tax on mortgage interest. So you will now be paying tax of 40% of the equity you have paid off so £2,640 on that plus 20% on your mortgage interest paid so plus £1320 = £3,960 tax to pay. As again this money is locked in your mortgage you will need cash available.

Because mortgage interest is not fully deductible it is possible for landlords to make a loss on their rental and still have a tax bill.

If you ever need to evict a tenant a court will not grant an eviction if you haven't done everything you are required to do as a landlord, so for that reason as well as other reasons, such as being far away, I would recommend using a reputable agent.

Being far from your property you have to factor in that even simple jobs such as replacing the sealant around a bath or doing a between tenant jobs you would most likely have to pay someone to do it for you.

ParisNext · 30/03/2022 03:48

Mortgage interest is not deductible at all now-you pay tax on your full income after deductibles such as letting and property costs. It used to be possible to deduct the interest okay element but this has been phased out over the last few years so some of these figures are wrong. You’d pay tax on all the rent - costs.

Hellorhighwater · 30/03/2022 10:37

Quite a lot of the information in this thread isn’t really right. I am a professional landlord, and there’s a lot to be considered.

Firstly, you may not be able to get a buy to let mortgage on that property. Mortgage companies will want to see much more rental income in excess of the payment. You may be able to get consent to let on your current mortgage. I expect my mortgage to be 25% of rental income, although my portfolio can run at 50%

Having said that, a buy to let mortgage will be interest only, which could be MUCH lower, as you generally only pay the interest, not a repayments. You are expected to make separate arrangements to pay off the actual loan (many people just remortgage forever until they sell. Some make other investments or have multiple buy to lets). You may struggle to get a buy to let mortgage depending on your income, or if you do not own a home otherwise or on a flat. They are very peculiar rules.

You can no longer declare your mortgage interest as an ‘allowable tax expense’ and then just pay tax on the profits after you’ve taken it off. You calculate your profits and then apply 20% of the mortgage interest as tax relief. This makes precisely no difference to the amount of tax you pay, unless you are a higher rate tax payer.

The rules and regs to stop landlords letting complete slums have (quite rightly) become very stringent over the last few years. You will need annual gas and electric checks (electric might be two years) and lots of things like fire extinguishers and your EPC must be at least band D (I’ve a feeling its going up to C, soon too). You will need to hold the deposit in a deposit protection scheme. If you have an agent, they will take care of this. And they will charge you 14% to do that.

You will rarely get the full amount each month. There will be checks, certificates, agency fees, advertising costs, insurance, tenancy agreements fees repairs and maintenance, and whatever else the agent has dreamed up. There are also pretty strict rules on what you can and can’t do if people don’t pay. Some months, people won’t pay. It’s inevitable. Sometimes, it will not be let at all. A local agent will be able to give you a better idea of some these costs locally to you. My insurance will be different to yours, as the property is different and I don’t have loss of rent cover. Your costs may be vastly different in if you are in London, say. It’s not helpful to give you mine!)

There is a certain amount of work to be done. You probably don’t need an accountant, if you can manage to fill in a tax return, and it probably won’t be loads (until some crisis or other hits. Sooner or later, one will!) Refinancing is a right pain in the proverbial and maintenance etc is ongoing.

I don’t think its a bad thing to do, but it’s not remotely the passive income people imagine. I still like property as an investment, because as well as income, you get the intrinsic rise in value which is often profitable and generally beats inflation. However, property is a very fixed asset. You cannot sell off a bit if you need extras funds one year, or diversify part of it if its doing badly, or take advantage of a surge in growth. You have to dispose of it all in one go. Sometimes that’s easy, sometimes it takes years, sometimes you make a loss, depending on the market and whether you can wait. And you always have to pay capital gains tax. (With say, shares you can dispose of a portion of your portfolio each year to keep you under the CGT tax threshold). It’s best to think of it of at least a side hustle, if not a part time business - do you want that? Sometimes it will be a case of just cashing the cheques. But sometimes it will be a pain in the proverbial. And there’s no telling when, either!

With the figures you have given, it’s not remotely viable. However, the figures aren’t really right, as the finance you need isn’t what you have. However, for all I know, you are happy to take a income-loss on it, and just let it accrue value while you pay it off (as you won’t have housing costs yourself). That’s a completely valid investment to make.

Also, consider what is going to happen to DMs house. If it’s your home too, how will that be reflected in the ownership? Are you going to part own it, is she going to leave it to you in her will? Can you pay inheritance tax from additional funds if she dies suddenly? What if she develops mental health problems and randomly leaves everything to the cat (or your siblings. Do you have siblings? Will they resent you getting the house, or a larger share of the house, as you will be helping out DM or will they still expect it to be equal? If you do get a larger share and they are not well off, its likely they will resent the additional wealth you could definitely gain here) or needs years of nursing care and the house must be sold to pay for them?

In your situation, I would think very carefully about whether I wanted to live my mother (In my case - Hell, no!) and if I did, I would insist that my mother put the house in our joint names as tenants in common so that the house automatically passed to me when she dies (it never forms part of her estate in this instance) and so cannot be willed elsewhere OR gifted it to me now, and a life interest is held for her (so it cannot be sold or she cannot be made to leave unless its unsuitable and comparable accommodations bought with the proceeds. I think that is possible with a living person) then it could not be willed away in fluctuating capacity or (sorry, it happens!) malice, forcibly sold to fund care costs and you won’t have to pay inheritance tax if she lives for seven years after gifting it to you (whether or not this seems likely would most influence which option)

I would then get a get a better mortgage (At a very rough guess I’d say you could halve it, but it depends on LOTS of info I don’t have here so that’s a real stab in the dark) get the flat managed by an agent and suck up the costs and more or less forget about it. I would keep the income from it separate, and drip feed it into an ISA (where I would probably take the tax savings each year and give myself a treat) and let it grow. When it comes to remortaging I would look each time (usually 2 or 5 years. I wouldn’t fix for longer, it’s pretty uncertain what will happen the moment) at the interest rates and decide whether to pay down the debt with no penalties (you just remortgage for less) or to reinvest the ISA money into more property or other investments.

I would also take the money you are currently paying on my mortgage and divide it into thirds. I would put one third into my pension, drip feed one third into cash savings or higher risk investments and and one third into treating myself to things I’d always wanted. Your living costs will be similar (in many cases less) and you should be able to sustain both an uplift in lifestyle and good financial planning. BUT it comes with risk attached, so you need a safely net (for example, if you lose your job, you will not be entitled to benefits of any kind. Also, there was no help for landlords during coronavirus. None. If you relied on property for income and it didn’t happen to be let, or the tenant couldn’t pay, tough, you’re on your own. So you’d better make your own safely net, lady!)

All this is assuming you are single, sub fifty and don’t already have a big pension or lots of investments or are planning/have a family. In which case, I imagine you would be asking different questions. Oh, and I wouldn’t get married. (What would you do if you did meet someone - continue to live with DM? Marriage would complicate things financially. I would keep any finances very separate. I’m aware there are IHT benefits, but I don’t think they outweigh the risks of need to share assets in the case of relationship breakdown, and I think there are better ways of avoiding them). I’m not having any more children, and no chap has played any part in supporting my family, so I don’t feel any financial obligation to support a future partner. I’d assume they’d be able to continue to support themselves if I they left/I died, although if I knew otherwise I might make some provision, but I would still expect to leave my daughter considerably better off than any partner)

This could leave you in a very comfortable position, when you retire and when your DM dies (hopefully peacefully in bed, many years hence etc etc etc) and living pretty comfortably up until then, too, if you are happy to take the lifestyle of sharing a house and somewhat prudent with your investments. There is risk here though, and you should be aware of it, comfortable with it and have some sort of plan in place for it.

Good luck!

Lunar27 · 30/03/2022 11:13

Straight away I'd say rent of £1200 vs a mortgage of £1100 will be difficult. Typically a BTL mortgage will have higher interest rates so the actual mortgage will exceed £1100.

It'd only work if you have an interest only mortgage but is not my cup of tea.

Personally I'd be looking to clear a chunk of mortgage off or offset to create a larger differential. Otherwise, you'll not be making enough to maintain the property or pay costs etc.

Lunar27 · 30/03/2022 11:18

Just to add. In the first instance, you need to look at a few lenders and see if you actually meet their lending criteria, if your current mortgage doesn't allow you to rent the property out.

Jillyfernilly · 30/03/2022 11:55

When I rented out my mortgaged home due to a job relocation I subsidised my tenants each month.... it would have been even worse now as there is no tax relief on mortgage payments.

Nicholethejewellery · 30/03/2022 11:59

You need to be looking at charging more in the region of 1800 per month if your mortgage is 1100, just to break even on a day to day basis. The only reason you should consider renting it for 1200 is if you can swallow the loss and are convinced property values will rise so that when you come to sell, you recoup your rental losses.

Dexy007 · 30/03/2022 12:10

I agree with pretty much everything everyone’s said, but don’t forget or overlook your anticipated capital gains. Might be negligible, might be huge. I make a loss of say 1000gbp per year on my house but in the two years I’ve been renting it out i think a conservative estimate is that it’s value has increased by 50000gbp.

It will take me a long time to lose money, even after CGT and selling costs.

Importantly I get the flexibility to move back if I leave this country and I couldn’t afford to buy again in that area of London.

And, I have money in S&S Isas and my pension and in shares. I don’t want my life savings in the stock market. I like having some money in property. If I’d sold it what would I do, enjoy 0.25% interest?!?

So don’t think only of the costs, think of the other side of the ledger - what’s it worth to you in non monetary senses

catfunk · 30/03/2022 23:01

Thank you everyone for your lengthy and considered replies, lots to think about.
The rental Idea would not be to make a profit, more to hold on to my home for a while until the dust settles a little and I can make a decision to let it go or not.
In theory I'd be working remotely and still earning whilst living rent free with DM so I could afford to take a hit.

To pp who asked about DM house- my brother and I own 25% each since our fathers death. There wouldn't be much IHT to pay - lovely home but in a cheap part of the country.

Thanks again everyone for ideas and input. Much appreciated x

OP posts:
Winter2020 · 07/04/2022 10:21

Hi OP,
I have just seen your update. In your circumstances (working but living with your mum with little outgoings) I would try for consent to let on your existing mortgage before I changed to a buy to let mortgage.

That way you continue to pay off your house and can move back in the future if you want. Your lender may ask for a fee or an extra % on your mortgage as the property is let but buy to let mortgages tend to be a higher % anyway. Explain to your lender that you would like to let temporarily as you need to care for your mum. This can still be an on going situation and go on for many years but I think if you know it is a permanent move and you would never intend to go back and make this clear to your lender they may think your current mortgage is not suitable.

Our house has been let for many years with consent from Nationwide. They charge an extra 1% I think.

You will need to save your tax up as your money will be locked in the house but working with little outgoings hopefully that won't be a problem. You would also need to pay if property void/tenants not paying etc.

Good luck OP.

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