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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

If you are a beef / sheep / chicken farmer, are you noticing a fall in demand?

229 replies

anotherotherone · 29/03/2022 18:31

I was just travelling back down to London by train and there seem to be a lot less sheep and cows in the fields than normal. Am I imagining things?

There are so many meat / dairy alternatives in the shops now. AIBU to think (well, hope) that as people are eating less meat these days and this trend looks set to continue,
are farmers reacting by reducing their stocks?

OP posts:
worcestersauce29 · 29/03/2022 23:03

@Fizbosshoes

Most of the milk alternatives are significantly more expensive than dairy
and of course they shouldn't even be called milk! As far as I can tell they are a liquid produced from soaking and/or blitzing grains, nuts etc. ?
anotherotherone · 29/03/2022 23:10

Vegetarian. Must be hysterical.

I think I’ve used caps once.

But never mind. I’m hardly going to be trying to convert meat farmers to vegetarianism Grin.

To be honest, I’ve been vegetarian since I was 12. Never tried to ‘convert’ anyone. Even my husband or kids. Nor do I claim to know the ‘farming lingo’ and the specific ins and outs of meat farming. It’s probably just as well, in my case, as I’d end up vegan. But, as I said, I’ve been vegetarian a long time, so meat substitutes such as Quorn have never been part of my diet or the way I cook. However, it’s obvious to me that the variety of meat / dairy substitute products has proliferated in the last couple of years and I was wondering about any impact of this in terms of farmers scaling down herds, etc. And yes, I’d personally be happy if that were the case - obviously (what with being non meat-eating and all). It’s not “hysterical” to be appalled by the scale of animal slaughter in the UK and globally.

OP posts:
Scrowy · 29/03/2022 23:20

What do you think the animals eat?! Do you know how much land is farmed for animal feed?

Livestock takes up nearly 80% of global agricultural land, yet produces less than 20% of the world’s supply of calories.

It always makes me smile when people try and use these sort of facts as some kind of gotcha.

I thought it was well recognised now that these stats have been manipulated/misrepresented.

None of my land is suitable for growing arable crops on any kind of scale. Its full of steep bits, rocky outcrops, walls, hedges and it 1300ft above sea level. There is limestone bedrock not far below the surface.

It grows grass quite well and we graze sheep outside on it 12 months of the year and cows outside on it 5 months of the year and 7 months inside from silage we made from it.

If it didn't have sheep and cows on it it would just be a scrubby, brackeny overgrown wilderness. Foxes and deer would probably like it. Not much else would.

My cows also eat the straw and pulp by-products of any arable crops that are leftover or rejected for crops for human consumption. Humans take the premium grade, cows get the rest.

So out of that 80% in 20% out calculation you do have to remember an awful lot of that is from pastureland that couldn't be used for anything else and crops that have been rejected for direct human consumption.

likemindedarseholes · 29/03/2022 23:38

@Scrowy can't wait to see the response to your post. This utopia which veggies suggest when the meat industry is gone is just fantasy. What are you going to eat in winter as a vegan? Cabbages? The whole eat local, slow food movement rarely lends itself to plant based cuisine, despite being arguably better for the environment. Sick of being lectured by avocado, quinoa, corn tortilla, almond milk drinking vegans about how detrimental my diet of local organic meat twice weekly is to the planet.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 30/03/2022 02:20

@anotherotherone ignorant then. Get rid of all the sheep and you’ll find it much more difficult to get your oat milk and muffins. The carbon cycle is pretty basic if nothing else.

I’ll go back to managing thousands of acres of farmland though to keep you in oat milk though.

Apparently not basic enough as what you're talking about is nutrient cycling, of which animals (not just livestock) do play an important roll, and has very little to do with the carbon cycle or the biogenic carbon cycle as some now try to refer to is as (which to me is simply an attempt to separate the natural process of carbon cycling from man-made sources of carbon emissons).

Proponents argue that the biogenic carbon cycle is the natural process in which plants absorb and store carbon, which is converted into cellulose, which is eaten by grazing animals, which is then returned to the atmosphere either via methane or eventually when the animal dies. And they're not wrong insofar as that it is a natural process that would happen with or without human intervention. The problem is some are trying to argue that this means animal agriculture is part of the that natural process when in fact animal agriculture is as man made as the burning of fossil fuels.

The following is a couple of extracts from articles that attempt to argue the case for animal agriculture (primarily cattle).

"Cattle are made to digest cellulose (what plants convert CO2 into). Cattle can use that carbon, upcycling the cellulose, for growth, milk production, and other metabolic processes. As a by-product of consuming cellulose, cattle belch out methane, there-by returning that carbon sequestered by plants back into the atmosphere. After about ten years that methane is broken down and converted back to CO2. Once converted to CO2, plants can again perform photosynthesis and fix that carbon back into cellulose. From here, cattle can eat the plants and the cycle begins once again. In essence, the methane belched from cattle is not adding new carbon to the atmosphere. Rather it is part of the natural cycling of carbon through the biogenic carbon cycle." (UC Davis, 2020)

"The biogenic carbon cycle is a key part of life: feeding plants, which then feed animals, which then feed us. In the biogenic carbon cycle, carbon is recycled rather than rapidly created and accumulated. And, importantly, the biogenic carbon cycle is relatively quick, taking place over the course of decades rather than the centuries or millennia it takes for greenhouse gases from fossil fuels to be redeposited back into the earth." (Planet of Plenty, 2021)

Sounds great, except when you actually analyse things and realised more than a few inconvenient truths are being skipped over including;

The fact that animal agriculture isn't natural. 20,000 years ago (a blink of an eye in the geological terms in which the carbon cycle operates) there were grazing animals and no livestock. Today 60% of ALL mammals are livestock (and 36% are humans) meaning less than 4% of mammals are naturally occuring grazing mammals (virtually the only grazing animals in our time).

The number of animals being rear as livestock has increased massively and as such IS releasing new carbon to the atmosphere as the carbon stored in plants would previous not have been eaten. In 1960 (the earliest I could find data on global cattle populations) there were around 740 million cattle, today its 1.5 billion and extra 700 million or so chomping up plants and pumping out methane. Livestock in general is increasing at around 2.4% a year (compared to around 1.05% per year for humans).

Naturally occuring grazing animals are free to roam and generally have a much longer lifespan than is afforded to those that are farmed, unnaturally shortening the cycle.

There is a huge amount of fossil fuel related emissons involved in the rearing, managing, slaughtering, processing and distribution of animal products that you can't just pretend doesn't exist.

Methane and the subsequent CO2 from a cow doesn't know that it's from a cow and neither does the plant that absorbs it. It takes the exact same amount of time for a molecule of CO2 from burning fossil fuels to filter through the atmosphere as it does from a cow.

If your removed the cow, sheep, pig, whatever you would keep the carbon locked up in the plant, which is what we need to be doing, for a much longer period of time AND you wouldn't have the additional emissons associated with animal agriculture and meat production.

TL:DR - there is no sound environmental reason for keeping livestock, at least not in its current state.

LabMix · 30/03/2022 02:55

lol at you claiming you never try to convert anyone. And yet here you are banging on about tonnes of slaughtered animals and the stench of the butchers 🙄

Scrowy · 30/03/2022 07:21

TL:DR - there is no sound environmental reason for keeping livestock, at least not in its current state

That's cow shit.

and how are you differing a grazing animal from livestock? Do my sheep that roam freely over 1000s of acres of fell ground chomp fewer plants than the ones I keep in fields?

The OP was telling us that there's been a decrease and the fields are empty. You are telling us there's actually been a year on year increase and there's too many animals eating grass in the fields?

What are the fossil fuel emissions on making a processed fake meat food, the real ones not the fake ones where half of its been offset by e.g planting a load of trees on good productive farm land here and in other parts of the world?

lightand · 30/03/2022 07:47

God approves of meat.
I am not going against God.

Quackpot · 30/03/2022 07:50

So are we to be lead to believe, that if we didn't farm livestock, that the plants would never die and so never return their carbon to the atmosphere?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 30/03/2022 07:51

I don't follow this argument closely but I have the impression that many UK evangelical vegans and vegetarians have been heavily influenced by horror stories about from other parts of the world and not specific issues with UK agriculture.

BattledoreAndShuttlecock · 30/03/2022 08:02

@Scrowy

TL:DR - there is no sound environmental reason for keeping livestock, at least not in its current state

That's cow shit.

and how are you differing a grazing animal from livestock? Do my sheep that roam freely over 1000s of acres of fell ground chomp fewer plants than the ones I keep in fields?

The OP was telling us that there's been a decrease and the fields are empty. You are telling us there's actually been a year on year increase and there's too many animals eating grass in the fields?

What are the fossil fuel emissions on making a processed fake meat food, the real ones not the fake ones where half of its been offset by e.g planting a load of trees on good productive farm land here and in other parts of the world?

The fossil fuel emissions per calorie of even the most processed "fake meat" are going to be far less than turning the same wheat/soya into processed fodder pellets, shipping it to livestock farms, feeding it to animals for months on ends and then "processing" the animals.

Purely grass/kitchen scraps-fed animals are a different kettle of fish but they make up a tiny proportion of world meat production.

EdithStourton · 30/03/2022 08:03

Naturally occurring grazing animals are free to roam and generally have a much longer lifespan than is afforded to those that are farmed
Grazing animals in a balanced ecosystem can often have very short and brutal life, due to disease, parasites and predation. If all the young that were born lived to adulthood, the population would be unsustainable. We have something of this issue with deer in the UK. We have no wolves (too many people to have space for free-roaming wolf packs in numbers large enough to be genetically viable) so we rely on cars and guns to 'predate' the deer. Where this doesn't happen - where landowners refuse to allow selective culling - you end up with massive welfare issues as overcrowded deer die of starvation and TB. I know of two places where this has happened. As it is, muntjac are very hard to control, and in some areas do a lot of damage to woodland, reducing the habitat available to other species (and if you have to go and look up what a muntjac is, you shouldn't really have an opinion on deer control, because you don't know enough to have one).

Oh, and @DdraigGoch, thanks for the dags tip!

BattledoreAndShuttlecock · 30/03/2022 08:06

@Quackpot

So are we to be lead to believe, that if we didn't farm livestock, that the plants would never die and so never return their carbon to the atmosphere?
That's not the problem: obviously.

The problem is the methane emissions from sheep and dairy farming, and the additional carbon emissions in the farming, processing and shipping of fodder, which is a big intervening step.

elbea · 30/03/2022 08:28

@Thebestwaytoscareatory so the summary is - you don’t know anything about farming? This is why these threads are tedious, you get people who don’t know anything about it regurgitating random statistics they’ve googled with no way to apply them. Carbon emissions are just part of a small story and talking about farming 20,000 years ago is a pointless waste of time.

If you remove livestock you will have to try and farm they Grade 3/4/5 land they graze, releasing carbon into the atmosphere. Most land is Grade 3 - you can grow some arable crops on some of it, but it’s better for grass.

All farming now is reasonably intensive. It has to be to support billions of people. If you take away livestock, soil health and fertility will decline meaning yields drop. You quickly won’t have enough food to go around, you could use chemical inputs but they are dreadful for the environment. Those 4% of wild mammals you talk of (livestock does graze?) aren’t going to be able to fertilise everything and keep up the soil health. I’m sure it will be enjoyable though when everybody starts to starve because there are no nutrients left in the ground, it’s rife with disease and pests and we’ve sprayed so much pesticide and artificial fertiliser that we’ve killed off everything else. Or we could use livestock in an arable rotation to restore fertility, improve soil health, reduce pests and disease and feed people.

anotherotherone · 30/03/2022 08:49

“God approves of meat.
I am not going against God.”

Oh well, that’s that then.

Sorry to the millions of animals being sent to slaughter, many of whom will end up rotting on food waste mountains. The humans have their gods you see. And the god here “approves.” Apparently, some other gods would not have approved of all the slaughtered pigs, and other gods would not have approved of all the slaughtered cows. But the human god here didn’t single any animal out as I unclean or sacred. So sorry about that.

OP posts:
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 30/03/2022 08:59

I can't speak for anyone else but I never waste meat. Too expensive, and I also feel that as it comes from another living creature I have a duty not to waste it.

OfstedOffred · 30/03/2022 09:07

Bear in mind some drop in individual consumption can be matched by population growth.

Supermarkets don't just stock meat alternatives due to demand. Some may be keen to push these if the profit margins available are higher than on meat. They may even stock them for quite a while as an investment strategy in the hope consumers will eventually buy, even if they aren't selling many now.its also a reputation thing, its trendy to go on about eating less meat etc, so some supermarkets may feel they must offer this or face criticism.

OfstedOffred · 30/03/2022 09:09

If you remove livestock you will have to try and farm they Grade 3/4/5 land they graze, releasing carbon into the atmosphere. Most land is Grade 3 - you can grow some arable crops on some of it, but it’s better for grass.

This. The analysis will be different depending on country/climate etc but in the UK switching to plant based doesnt really fit with the land & climate we have.

OfstedOffred · 30/03/2022 09:12

Also I'm another person who knows very few people who have gone vegetarian. The vegetarians I know have either been so for donkeys years, or were people who never ate much meat or fish anyway and haven't needed to make much change to exclude it entirely.

The people I know who like meat have zero intention of giving it up. I like meat and will continue to eat it. I have made an effort to reduce the % of meat per meal, but in that time I've produced two children who eat meat, so as a family our demand hasnt dropped.

Shade17 · 30/03/2022 09:14

Queues out the door of my favourite butcher/game dealer the other day. Business is doing VERY well.

Soubriquet · 30/03/2022 09:15

I love the smell of the butchers Blush

Moonmelodies · 30/03/2022 09:21

There was a farmer on Farming Today earlier in the week saying she's making more money selling the chickens' shit than the chickens' eggs, thanks to the current fertilizer supply crisis.

SquirrelG · 30/03/2022 09:27

It’s mostly people 40+ who are still drink cow tit milk. Luckily the newer generations have realised that I drinking milk from another species is weird!

Tell that to all the kids who drink milk at school in my country. Not to mention all the young people who eat yoghurt, cheese etc. You are talking through a hole in your head.

EdgeOfSeventeenAndThreeQuarter · 30/03/2022 09:28

Gaspode- yes, I abhor wasting meat and will freeze/give the dog every last ounce.

I also agree that many are riled up with stories of overseas animal abuse. Where I live we’re quite hot on local meat. Knowing butchers/abattoir workers - they kind of keep an eye on the local farmers. They see up close and personal when someone is sending in lambs that are a touch “slim”. Peer pressure does wonders for animal welfare! … which is a lot more than can be said for pre-chopped stuff shipped in.

Organic meat (in the uk) gets all medicines/vaccinations/preventions - if the vet orders it, it’s done. You could have a chat with an organic-licensed vet about it.

ikeepseeingit · 30/03/2022 09:40

I have reduced my meat intake but I’m no way vegetarian. The same for most of my family and a lot of my friends too. 17% reduction does make sense to me. It also makes sense that butchers are doing better because people will want to spend money on their meat when they get it. A lot of people I know have switched to oat milk, but because they’ve realised they’re lactose intolerant not for the cows 🤷‍♀️

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