Triggered by my own DC

[NameChanged2022]

I don't quite know what to do.

Married XH 2007, DC12 b.2010, DC10 b. 2011, separated 2017, divorced 2019.

New partner, new baby, all good / balanced / happy in the main.

XH shows tendencies towards narcissistic personality disorder, sociopathic behaviour - I'm no expert but I've listened to HG Tudor, read Lundy Bancroft, and noted XFIL shared similar characteristics. XH enjoys being cruel, to people and animals (to make himself feel better / superior), puts people down in front of others / mocks, bullies, never admits he's wrong, has an attitude / arrogance about him which reeks of superiority, smirks when others fail / when you are upset by something he's done, even his walk is haughty and dismissive. It was hateful living with him and being mocked, denigrated, made to feel inferior, derided, lied to, just generally made to feel like I had no business being on this planet. He took all of my self worth away from me and made me totally numb, unfeeling. Hollow.

So on to my AIBU. I don't know what to do. Down to the way he speaks, looks, walks, behaves, smirks, even the way he bloody EATS, his manner, the way he - if I'm spelling out how a game is played, or how to load the dishwasher or cook an egg for for example - just does not listen, so when it's his turn he doesn't know what he's doing, the way he behaves towards me if I'm telling him off, the terrible way he speaks to his younger brother. My DC12 is the absolute spit of his dad.

I am so triggered and I don't know what to do with myself. All the traits and characteristics which I absolutely hated and resented and which made me totally mad, are in my DC12.

I know he has other more positive aspects to him - he has (some) empathy, compassion, he is loving and he cares. He's learnt all this by rote, and I think he probably has inherited some of these rather more emotionally intelligent parts of his character from me / other family members / my partner, but I just don't know what to do about how he makes me feel, all too often.

Please help.

Childhood trauma from his own birth (both of us were in danger) coupled with a lot of hospital intervention due to an inherited (paternal) disorder, and major abdominal surgery when he was 5. Parents separated when he was 7

Sounds like a lot going on Namecahnge but a “good enough parent” so not trying to be perfect but being able to meet his emotional needs can offset those experiences. I can imagine it is a tough experience for you too. Xx

Have a read of out of the fog website. It blew my DDs mind when she was about 9. Life changing. See if it rings true for their dad etc.

@Ponoka7

Let him try that in high school to the older boys. How are his friendships? You need to clamp down on this towards his brother. Do you think that he looks up to his Dad so copies, or is his self esteem low and he's acting out?

I think his self esteem is low so he's acting out. He struggled with friendships at primary however has made a good few (handful) friends at his secondary school, to which he has transitioned seamlessly - he's a bright kid who loves to learn, and he is thriving in an environment where he moves around to different classrooms, the range of subjects has suddenly greatly increased, and his brain is just a fizzing pot of newly acquired knowledge.

What he struggles with is that his dad has absolutely no interest whatsoever in his day to day, he doesn't ask about school, friends, subjects, activities - nothing. Which in turn leads both DC to think their dad simply isn't interested.

I learnt through counselling that I am no longer responsible for XHs behaviour. So I no longer justify his disinterest in their education (or lives, as a whole, in all honesty).

People have such a strong urge to believe that parenting can overcome genetics. Otherwise why do we bother? I went into parenting thinking this.

But then DC, who has never met their DF, grew up into his carbon copy. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

You may get your DS back, you may not.

I'm sorry.

@DontLookBackInAnger1 - interestingly it was the play therapist who suggested I shouldn't sugar coat their dad's abusive behaviour anymore. So, for example, DS12 was in hospital last March for 5 days. Obviously I stayed with him, but when it came down to it, his father refused to visit. For the first time (and there have been many, many times...), I didn't make excuses for him. DS12 then gave his father what for over WhatsApp and refused to talk to him for two weeks. The virtual reality headset (Occulus) made up for it though - for a short time. Until DS12 came home one day and said "he just buys us expensive things to make us feel like he loves us, doesn't he mum?" I didn't deny it.

There are other examples where I've sent an email and their father has completely denied anything of the sort to the DC. Play therapist suggested if I had it in black and white (and it was appropriate to do so), I should show the children, because their father is such a liar he doesn't know which way is up. Her view was that they needed to realise this sooner rather than later in order to be assertive, and protect themselves from him. Most recent example, DCs came home and said "dad won't let us use the shower, he said we have to continue using the bath." I said I would email him, and tell him to "let them have a bloody shower, on their own like they asked you the other day, and while you're at it, eldest DC needs his own room / privacy / space."

DC said "dad will deny the conversation we had about using the shower, by the way."

XH wrote back. "This conversation never happened." You couldn't make it up!

I guess what I'm saying is they're wise to it. They shouldn't have to be at their age, but they are.

Just a wild suggestion OP but I once read a psychologist say that he'd noticed a number of narcissist parents had children with ASD.

The not always appearing to have empathy (may express it differently, or not 'get ' the situation rather than having none), poor listening and thinking he knows it already, slightly superior attitude, previous struggles with friendships, learning emotional stuff by rote, being bright and doing well at school....

I say all this also because almost all of what you say rings true for my ds with ASD - who coincidentally has a father who ticks all the boxes for vulnerable narcissism.

[quote NameChanged2022]@DontLookBackInAnger1 - interestingly it was the play therapist who suggested I shouldn't sugar coat their dad's abusive behaviour anymore. So, for example, DS12 was in hospital last March for 5 days. Obviously I stayed with him, but when it came down to it, his father refused to visit. For the first time (and there have been many, many times...), I didn't make excuses for him. DS12 then gave his father what for over WhatsApp and refused to talk to him for two weeks. The virtual reality headset (Occulus) made up for it though - for a short time. Until DS12 came home one day and said "he just buys us expensive things to make us feel like he loves us, doesn't he mum?" I didn't deny it.

There are other examples where I've sent an email and their father has completely denied anything of the sort to the DC. Play therapist suggested if I had it in black and white (and it was appropriate to do so), I should show the children, because their father is such a liar he doesn't know which way is up. Her view was that they needed to realise this sooner rather than later in order to be assertive, and protect themselves from him. Most recent example, DCs came home and said "dad won't let us use the shower, he said we have to continue using the bath." I said I would email him, and tell him to "let them have a bloody shower, on their own like they asked you the other day, and while you're at it, eldest DC needs his own room / privacy / space."

DC said "dad will deny the conversation we had about using the shower, by the way."

XH wrote back. "This conversation never happened." You couldn't make it up!

I guess what I'm saying is they're wise to it. They shouldn't have to be at their age, but they are.[/quote]
I'm glad, I know it doesn't feel like it but by being honest with them, you're allowing them the empowerment to make decisions for themselves. To validate their feelings (because deep down they'll have had questions over dad). And you're giving them someone (you) who they can talk about it all with as and when they want to.

I hope your eldest finds the confidence to welcome vulnerability back into his life x

@Gowithme

Just a wild suggestion OP but I once read a psychologist say that he'd noticed a number of narcissist parents had children with ASD.

The not always appearing to have empathy (may express it differently, or not 'get ' the situation rather than having none), poor listening and thinking he knows it already, slightly superior attitude, previous struggles with friendships, learning emotional stuff by rote, being bright and doing well at school....

I say all this also because almost all of what you say rings true for my ds with ASD - who coincidentally has a father who ticks all the boxes for vulnerable narcissism.

So this is really interesting. When we spoke to CAMHS, my suggestion was that I thought he was displaying signs of ASD.

CAMHS said his behaviours were all too similar to trauma, and they left it there.

I have spoken with his primary teachers at length - two of whom had him for two years - neither of whom felt he needed to be assessed, whereas I thought it might be appropriate (the school is in trouble at the moment for completely letting down another student who's parents wanted her assessed for years and it's only now SENDIAS is involved that they've sat up and listened). The SENCO who said he had no empathy gave him a tough time in Reception, as did the head - at times I was called up to the school to an enraged head who would literally shout at me "you deal with him" because he wouldn't eat certain vegetables (colour, texture, touching other things on the plate) at lunch time, and still they didn't listen to my suggestion of ASD.

What would I need to do, and if he was diagnosed, how would this help?

Also @Gowithme - what is vulnerable narcissism?

@felulageller

People have such a strong urge to believe that parenting can overcome genetics. Otherwise why do we bother? I went into parenting thinking this.

But then DC, who has never met their DF, grew up into his carbon copy. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

You may get your DS back, you may not.

I'm sorry.

It's scary, the nature nurture debate is so very much in my direct sight at the moment.

ExMIL came to visit one day, and said "I just finished a biography about someone who sounds just like your father!" (They had divorced over a decade earlier). We asked who it was. "Harold Shipman" she said "but the difference is I don't think your father killed anyone."

😐

Can you go for therapy? Discuss this with somebody who can help you deal with what sound like awful feelings for you. Recovering from relationships with abusive types is not easy. Ive been to therapy twice!. 7 years with my x, and since i left, 3 in therapy. I Might go again. My son doesnt trigger me though. He is no angel and he is lazy and monosyllabic but i dont see my x in him. I have needed therapy along the way though.

Patrick teahan has a good video about the over lap between trauma and ADD