School uniform policy

[CuntyMcBollocks]

I'm interested in people's opinions on this.

A couple of years ago my niece got into trouble at school and was put into isolation for taking off her school blazer. It was in the middle of a heatwave and she took her thick blazer off as she was too hot. The schools policy is that students must wear them at all times, which I personally find ridiculous for reasons such as this.

I understand that the school wants students to look smart and abide by their rules, but surely a bit of common sense should be used also.

@Fizbosshoes

I can't see why students (especially teens) can't decide for themselves how much clothing is necessary (obviously within uniform constraints) some people get hot more quickly or feel more comfortable writing/working without a blazer on. Others might feel cooler. In workplaces I know there are often debates about when to put the air con on but no one polices whether you can or can't take a layer off, or wear extra layers. My DS has gone through the whole of winter wearing a shirt and blazer and tie (no vest or jumper) whereas DD has felt cold with vest, shirt jumper and blazer (and occassionally a coat) People have different temperature/comfort levels.

This is my issue. In the middle of winter my son comes home and immediately takes his jumper off - the heating is usually set to 18! I however would have probably two jumpers on. There is no way he would learn better with a jumper and a blazer on. I think at primary he only ever has a polo shirt on in the classroom. Why is that ok at primary and not at secondary? Why make rules so hard for kids to follow - setting them up to fail 😡

Aside from arguments about whether to have one or not, uniform has become the one thing it seems schools can use as a common policy and enforce. Too many parents are unsupportive of other reasonable rules and basic standards of behaviour in school, taking the Boris Johnson style approach for their children (exceptionalism or just that rules should apply to everyone else).

@Fizbosshoes

I went to school in the 1990s and I remember the head teacher hiding waiting a few hundred metres from the school exit in the summer, to check pupils were wearing blazers on their way home!!

I think teachers like this have issues and possibly need some help.

If the weather is exceptionally warm, the headteacher will give classroom teachers discretion to permit removal in their lessons. On a few days per year, blazers can also be removed in corridors etc.

You’d think a headteacher would have better things to do with her time than deciding it is hot enough for pupils to remove their blazers and then having to relay such message to every teacher in a large secondary school.

You’d think a headteacher would have better things to do with her time than deciding it is hot enough for pupils to remove their blazers and then having to relay such message to every teacher in a large secondary school. It always bloody amazed me how much time HTs devote to uniform - fetish anyone?

You’d think a headteacher would have better things to do with her time than deciding it is hot enough for pupils to remove their blazers and then having to relay such message to every teacher in a large secondary school.It always bloody amazed me how much time HTs devote to uniform - fetish anyone?

I think the same. I felt really sorry for HTs and teachers throughout covid with all the extra procedures, and protocols, often having to be implemented within hours (out of work time) and all the switch to online learning, and was really in awe of how they delivered. I emailed the school with positive feedback btw, for those who think some parents only moan!)
That said after a few weeks back at school (in the period where PE kit was to be worn all day) we got a really stroppy email about kids wearing fully logoed school PE kit but with (gasp!) a hoodie OR sports brand joggers or leggings. They had said plain leggings or joggers could be worn but made a big deal if they had an obvious logo.
Considering all the other rules that had to be implemented to do with covid, I just wondered why make extra work for yourself by checking if a pair of joggers has a noticeable Nike tick, or says Adidas on it (This was at a time when shops had been closed for ages as well!)

@balalake

Aside from arguments about whether to have one or not, uniform has become the one thing it seems schools can use as a common policy and enforce. Too many parents are unsupportive of other reasonable rules and basic standards of behaviour in school, taking the Boris Johnson style approach for their children (exceptionalism or just that rules should apply to everyone else).

I think you have that the wrong way round. Weak headteachers tend to fasten on uniform policy because it's relatively easy to enforce and make a big noise about, and it cons parents into thinking the school is hot on discipline. There's much more work involved in improving academic outcomes and instilling a culture throughout the school where people value and respect each other which results in a disciplined ethos that doesn't rely on draconian enforcement of a load of pointless rules.

If you want to incite parents into being unsupportive of your rules, having a rigid uniform policy is certainly the way to go. DS has sensory problems and can't bear wearing long sleeves. He used to be in a school where they made a major fuss about everyone wearing jumpers all the time so that they all looked the same. When they complained to me about the fact that DS never wore his, I made it entirely clear that his wellbeing and ability to learn without being in constant discomfort were an awful lot more important to me than their rules, and also pointed out their obligations under the Equality Act. I'm sure I was regarded as an unsupportive parent, but the reality was I was perfectly prepared to support them with sensible rules, but not with stupid ones.

I agree the focus on strict uniform is easy, non controversial, but instead of instilling pride in the school the constant picking on the kids especially those who are unable to meet the schools exacting standards because of thing that are often beyond their control just wears all the good feeling down. By the time my kids left secondary I had stopped reading the HTs uniform rants, they just made me think she was an absolute idiot - things were going on in the school that needed to be dealt with like shit teaching but instead she just doubled down on the uniform and detentions - if there was a creative, clever, problem solver in there she never let it out, her staff were lazy as shit during the lockdown - all the screaming about uniform couldn’t change that and it seemed it was the only tool she had.

Same policy at DS’s secondary, they also have to wear trousers or thick tights all year round. Batshit.

In my school students have to ask to remove their blazers and I would certainly never say no.

So why make them ask? Surely constantly answering requests for permission to remove a blazer just interrupt your lessons? If the school just left it to children to decide whether they needed a blazer or not it would potentially save hours of teachers' time over the course of a term.

@EthelTheAardvark
You are completely correct. It’s weak management. It masks other weaknesses in SLT. It treats DC as if they were foot soldiers in a military academy. I’m amazed parents go along with it. Schools that really cannot have sensible policies are not worth supporting uncritically.

@EthelTheAardvark

Personally I think it’s about discipline and showing respect for adults. It also isn’t much of a uniform if removal is allowed at any time.

At my DCs’ school, they aren’t allowed to ask to remove blazers and jumpers. Instead, the head will make an announcement to classroom teachers, who can then invite DC to remove them if a particular room is very warm.

This is a fair approach imo as it stops some teachers allowing blazers off at any time while others always expect them on.

[quote RocketFire7]@EthelTheAardvark

Personally I think it’s about discipline and showing respect for adults. It also isn’t much of a uniform if removal is allowed at any time.

At my DCs’ school, they aren’t allowed to ask to remove blazers and jumpers. Instead, the head will make an announcement to classroom teachers, who can then invite DC to remove them if a particular room is very warm.

This is a fair approach imo as it stops some teachers allowing blazers off at any time while others always expect them on.[/quote]
Respect runs a bit deeper than following daft rules - I think what you mean is unquestioning obedience - which is not quite as valuable as having respect. The strict uniform policies imo teach kids to resent the school rather than respect it.

I'm not sure how it is disrespectful to take a layer of clothing off because you feel too hot...? (Assuming the clothes you have kept on are appropriate) At work I don't need to ask permission to take a jumper or hoodie off when it's more comfortable to work in a tshirt. Even in work places with branded uniform (banks, building societies, soft play areas, zoos etc etc) there're usually variations eg a branded shirt/blouse and jacket for formal uniforms and a polo shirt and fleece for the more casual uniform. Unless there is a practical or safety reason for wearing a compulsory piece of kit or clothing. Nor do you see in work places , employees wearing totally unsuitable clothes for the job eg builders and plumbers don't generally wear a suit and tie.

DD has worn shirt, jumper and blazer all week, DS hasworn a shirt and blazer and taken the blazer off at any opportunity. I don't see DD as more respectful, she just feels the cold more! Similarly DS is often in tshirt, shorts and barefoot at home when I'm in a hoodie, jeans and slippers. I don't feel disrespected or offended that he happens to need less clothes on to feel comfortable.

At my DCs’ school, they aren’t allowed to ask to remove blazers and jumpers. Instead, the head will make an announcement to classroom teachers, who can then invite DC to remove them if a particular room is very warm.

Can I ask how she goes about that. Is there announcement over the school tannoy? Does she send a messenger to each classroom door? Or does she text or email? What happens if she’s attending meetings or doing other HT duties on a particularly hot day?

Personally I think it’s about discipline and showing respect for adults. It also isn’t much of a uniform if removal is allowed at any time.

Surely if a school has a uniform, there will be another item of uniform underneath the blazer and jumper. It’s not like you’ll have a class if kids sitting in string vests!

[quote RocketFire7]@EthelTheAardvark

Personally I think it’s about discipline and showing respect for adults. It also isn’t much of a uniform if removal is allowed at any time.

At my DCs’ school, they aren’t allowed to ask to remove blazers and jumpers. Instead, the head will make an announcement to classroom teachers, who can then invite DC to remove them if a particular room is very warm.

This is a fair approach imo as it stops some teachers allowing blazers off at any time while others always expect them on.[/quote]
No-one is talking about the children stripping off completely or changing into different clothes. All they are talking about is the children either wearing their uniform blazer with their uniform shirt (and possibly jumper) underneath, or taking it off and showing their uniform shirt and/or jumper. How does that suddenly make it not a uniform? If school discipline collapses as a result, it suggests that it's horrendously weak.

At my DCs' school I'm happy to say that the head and teachers concentrate on their jobs, and allow children to think for themselves about what they're wearing. Discipline in the school is absolutely fine, as are academic results.

My DDs have been to a pretty expensive boarding school. Blazers were never worn in class. They had pullovers over a cotton short sleeved shirt. Blazers were worn if the girls went outside as they moved from building to building. Life there didn’t revolve around an expensive uniform and trips out were nearly always mufti. I felt the girls could decide within reason what layers they wore. No summer dresses. Just the skirts and blouses.

DD2 went to a 6th form where there was school uniform for lower 6th. Plain white shirt, plain navy skirt and navy pullover. They had a house tie but no blazer. We were blessed with sensible heads and minimum rules.

Who on earth wants to wear a cheap polyester blazer all day anyway? As long as DC wear shirts and pullovers as appropriate plus skirts/trousers, what on earth is the issue?

One of my friends worked in a local private school - having a dc a local state school obsessed with strict uniform, she was quite surprised to see how little the uniform rules were enforced. She was told - the pupil's attitude to their studies and their extra curricular activities was where the school directed their energies, if the pupils wanted to rebel and wear short skirts and lose ties - did it really matter? The parents are paying for results. First day of lockdown - the private school kids continued to attend to their lessons online seamlessly...my friend's dc's school never did engage in online lessons - even when mandated by the Gov. Weak leadership puts the blame on parents and kids for all their woes rather than focusing on the teaching and the school and you can see why, it's easier!

I think it is fucking stupid and an example of tradition when it is letting dead people bully the living. I have assured my sons that there will be no repercussions if they remove (or add) items to their clothing to adapt to current conditions. Any detentions issued on this will be made null and void at my end - even if I have to pick them up at school.
Mind you, I am ND as is my immediate family and we are generally somewhat 'rules blind' if there appears to be no logical reason for a rule to exist. That and having to perform someone else's magic and ritual actually causes me enough cognitive dissonance to cause me physical pain.

I’ve been lucky to avoid the “tradition” of cheap nasty man made fibre blazers and weak SLT. However at prep DD2 did have a boater and a cloak in winter! Cloaks are rather useful for hiding “stuff” under them. At least they were wool.

”Personally I think it’s about discipline and showing respect for adults. It also isn’t much of a uniform if removal is allowed at any time.”

The primary reason - maybe the only reason - that children go to school is so that they can get an education, in my opinion, @EthelTheAardvark. Obviously there need to be rules and discipline, so that the teachers can teach and the pupils can learn in a studious atmosphere, but if a school has decided that “respect” for the teachers and the rules means children having to overheat in layer upon layer of clothing, and being so hot and uncomfortable that they cannot concentrate on their work, then I would argue that school has lost sight of their primary responsibility. It would sound as if the ‘look’ of the school, with all the pupils being identical, matters more to them than their actual, human pupils and their comfort and ability to learn!

A child who removes their blazer will, presumably, have on their uniform shirt and tie, and will therefore still present a reasonably tidy appearance - no-one is suggesting they should be allowed to strip down to their undies or don tropical print clothes/swimwear.

Telling children that they can only remove their blazer if they are told they may smacks of power that has gone to their heads, rather than a commitment to an orderly learning atmosphere.

@TizerorFizz

I’ve been lucky to avoid the “tradition” of cheap nasty man made fibre blazers and weak SLT. However at prep DD2 did have a boater and a cloak in winter! Cloaks are rather useful for hiding “stuff” under them. At least they were wool.

We had cloaks when I was at school, they were brilliant. The school's heating system was dreadful, we regularly ended up wearing the cloaks indoors and using them as an extra blanket at night.

Why have you addressed your post to me, @SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius? I didn't say what you are quoting. If you read my post you will note I was disagreeing with it.

@EthelTheAardvark
Were you at a girls’ prep in Bucks?