Religious detachment

[Ori18]

I watched Stacey Dooley’s documentary about nuns recently. She stayed for a week or so in a convent & talked to the nuns about their choices & their faith. What jumped out at me was how religious people who have chosen to totally devote themselves to a spiritual path - i.e nuns, Buddhist monks etc can truly practice the skills of detachment, attaining enlightenment & spiritual awareness & peace, purely because they lead a lifestyle which is very removed from the reality that most individuals live.

The majority of people deal with bills, changing nappies, a load of stress and shite at work, feeding kids, picking kids up, dropping kids off, doing endless rounds of washing, cooking, cleaning, taking pets to the vet, freaking out over never having any money in the bank, and so on. Sure, I could be enlightened if I voluntarily removed myself, detached myself even, from the grind of day-to-day life but I can’t.

It’s easy to exist on a higher spiritual plane if you don’t have to deal with stressful reality. Is it unreasonable of me to think that people who choose that way of life are seeking escapism of the most drastic sort? Is it a way to avoid the other stuff that most people are burdened with? I’d love to be more spiritually in tune with myself & the universe etc etc but I don’t have fucking time!!! The nuns do a lot of good in their community & have made big sacrifices themselves to lead that way of life but they sort of exist in a carefully controlled bubble. The church is their keeper, they don’t have any worry, or uncertainty about money, they see it that God provides for them, through the church.

The true test of spiritual growth surely is strength under pressure. Couldn’t anyone embody holiness by living in a bubble?

I think when you're in the daily grind you think it sounds great, but the reality is that the 'bubble' is very difficult to live in. Look at how much people struggled during lockdown.

Part of convent life is the rejection of worldly pleasures too.

My mum knows two women who tried to leave their family to do something like this

I say tried because while one has left, now sees her family on zoom, tne other one didn't quite succeed as her chosen order wasn't happy with it, so she does half a week at home.

I resisted the urge to say (to mum, not to them) that I wondered if they'd feel the need to follow this path if they hadn't had children! 😂

I sort of know what you mean but I expect they have different troubles.

Spiritual enlightenment has different meanings for everyone.

@StillTheOneIRunToooooo

I think when you're in the daily grind you think it sounds great, but the reality is that the 'bubble' is very difficult to live in. Look at how much people struggled during lockdown.

Part of convent life is the rejection of worldly pleasures too.

I think that's a false equivalence but I won't get started on lockdown as I'll never stop!

I mean, yes. Absolutely it’s easier to be spiritually pure or enlightened or whatever when you live in a bubble. Isn't that the precise reason they live to at way?

I don’t think anyone living a normal life is being held to the same spiritual standards as nuns and monks. But if you fancy that life - go for it!

*that way

I know a lot of Catholic nuns, religious sister and brothers and Priests.
From the outside yes it looks like this life free of responsibility but this truly isn’t the case.
You totally give up your autonomy - your life is given over the the rule of your order. Every aspect of your day (maybe with the exception of going to the toilet) is dictated by the rule. Some orders (like the one my friend tried her vocation in) include no central heating, getting up multiple times in the night for prayers, hard physical Labour. Nuns and monks are not allowed to have best friends - you must treat all members of the community equally. No physical touch really - no hugs. No visiting your families for some orders.
For the priests - the can be sent anywhere in the word at anytime. No choice. You make a life and then it is uprooted and you start again. Often the new parishioners can make life very difficult for the newly arrived priest as they don’t like the change.
Community life is challenging - living with other people. Often in small circumstances. You don’t get to choose what you eat and when.
Most religious I know are in this life because they have a real, sincere, deep love of Jesus. My aunt (who the Mother Superior decided she did not have a vocation and so my aunt had to leave) said her happiest times in the chapel praying to Jesus. She had to leave - she had no money, no where to live, no job. She had given all these up when she went to try her vocation.

It's a different vocation.
Yes. It is in one way an easier sort of life life. In another it is very difficult. Praying constantly can really take it out of you. Also the simple life, the restricting pleasure. The being told what to do and when to do it. The not really having any choice about who you live with, but not only live with, be committed to life with. (At least you can choose a partner/spouse)

But that is an unusual life which few are called to.
Most of us are expected to live out our vocation and to try to become holy in normal life. The life of a mother with small kids, or a woman who is a CEO, will be very different.

The hard bit is discovering where you fit best.

Is it unreasonable of me to think that people who choose that way of life are seeking escapism of the most drastic sort?

That's like saying that people who choose to marry, have children, work have deliberately opted for a stressful life.

Living without life's luxuries, unable to make independent decisions, existing to an unchanging routine, giving up contact with friends and family, having no money to spend as you like must bring stress of a different kind as must constantly 'trying to live on a high spiritual plain'.

I have quite a lot of respect for people such as nuns and monks, who dedicate themselves completely to their religion. They see a hell of a lot more of the world than we do. I worked with a guy who was a monk for a while for a non Christian religion. (He was a charity volunteer). He would disappear to be sent to war and disaster zones to to help street children. I had an enormous amount of respect for him. So whilst they aren't dragged down by the day to day hassles of electric bills, the good works that they do on behalf od their religion(s) put them into situations very few of us would be able to cope with.
(Obviously we all know about the bad apples who have abused their positions.)

I was considering becoming a nun before I met DH.
I would of done it if I hadn't met him first.

It takes a lot of you praying all the time, not being able to choose who you live with nor work with, being restricted etc. but it can be a wonderful way of live too.

Nuns - you have missed out one essential word. God.
They worship God. They are helped by God. They pray to God.

I think it can't have been a very good documentary if this is your impression of nuns. I don't think it's easy to live a life of self denial and constant dedication to God. Nuns don't have servants you know. The Covent needs looking after so there is domestic work in the same way we all have. Nuns don't get to kick back with a glass of wine, take a pilates class or recharge on a beach. You dont get to choose who you live with and you're not able to have a bust up like you're on a reality show. Although I'm sure they aren't saintly all the time.

I don't think I could be a nun but I have respect and admiration for women who do.

Is it unreasonable of me to think that people who choose that way of life are seeking escapism of the most drastic sort?

It is unreasonable to think you know what anyone’s inner motivation is for the choices they make. Especially when you then go on to denounce it.

I used to go to a convent primary school and had a few nuns as teachers ,I thought it might be quite nice living in a convent with all your meals etc made for you
This was in the 70,s and 80,s all the nuns that taught me looked about 101 ,but we're probably in their 50,s
How many young women choose to become a nun in this day and age .

Surely the point is about choice. If someone chooses to have a family and pets and all the trappings of today's lifestyle then of course there are the modern-day stresses. The nuns on Stacey's programme gave up everything to follow God. I felt sad when it appeared that they couldn't read secular books and when Stacey asked them about it, one nun said she had cards that she had been given and got those out to read from time to time. They only had £75 per annum for personal use and yet they chose to spend it on presents (presumably for their families on the outside). There's no way would I regard living in a convent as a easy life.
Many offer weekend retreats and like Stacey, you don't have to be a believer.

You’re also wrong that they are guaranteed financial security. As individuals, possibly, but as a community, they have to cover their costs like any other household. They do chores to serve the community. They aren’t busily rushing around doing 100 other things a day because they have chosen not to.

Try choosing to do less in your own life?

@bridgetreilly

You’re also wrong that they are guaranteed financial security. As individuals, possibly, but as a community, they have to cover their costs like any other household. They do chores to serve the community. They aren’t busily rushing around doing 100 other things a day because they have chosen not to.

Try choosing to do less in your own life?

I understood that life was very busy in all religious orders with chores etc.

I think it’s certainly easier to develop a still and peaceful mind, and work on training your mind, in perfect retreat conditions. But to attain enlightenment you are training in changing negative states of mind and ways of responding, in all circumstances. Like, how could you become truly patient, without fucking annoying folk to practice on?!!

I’m kind of saying it’s all about your intention and motivation. Yes daily life is fucking hard but in many ways it’s a perfect spiritual training ground, if you allow it to be.

Nuns and monks may look like they have reached nirvana but I am confident that many wrestle with many of the same emotions as you and have chosen a different path to try and work with that. Like pp says, simplifying your life is a good idea for all of us if we want to improve our minds.

Maybe I'll watch the documentary, it sounds interesting.

I've read a few accounts of life as a nun (none of life as a monk yet) and my impression is of unrelenting pressure and the aim being to eliminate the self and your own will, with the aim of becoming purely a vessel for God's will. I was a Christian as a child- very far from any religious life - and I remember the relentless self examination and total giving up of any idea that you could do anything without God. 'We have left undone those things which we ought to have done and we have done those things which we ought not to have done, and there is no health in us.' That's from memory because I recited it every week. Try reciting similar prayers multiple times a day. The aim is to break and reform you.

Nuns do deal with money issues actually. The church isn't as rich as it used to be and chapters can and are closed leading the nuns to be disbanded and sent elsewhere.

Part of the idea with monastic communities is that the people living in them are in fact related to the wider community, even though they may in some ways be remote.

One way may be that they support the community through prayer directly, if that is something the religion believes in. But also, by spending their time and energy on a very intense and deep way on the spiritual life, what they learn becomes useful to the whole community. That could be through writings, teaching, spiritual direction of individuals. It's similar in a way to how an academic becomes an expert in a particular subject or an elite sportsperson.

A good example of that is Sister Wendy, who wrote and made programs about art. She was actually a hermit, she was attached to a community of nuns but lived in isolation for many years, studying art as a way to understand God. Which eventually she was able to share with people in a way that enriched their lives.

That being said, it's not like monastics don't ever have to worry about paying bills or feeding themselves. They need to do those things just like everyone else.