to resist having 'legal footpaths' on my land?

[OofyProsser]

I own 60 acres in South of England. It is all private with no public access. However, we have always let local people walk here with their dogs etc.

We recently moved some electric fencing to access some new grazing for cattle which cuts across a fairly well-trodden path (but there are others).

A 'walking group', which isn't terribly local and whom I've never heard of, are now threatening legal action unless we re-open the path. I've spoken to one of their reps to explain that it's private land but they don't care. How cheeky is that?

I'm so fucking cross that I feel like padlocking all the gates and sticking 'private' signs up everywhere.

What does MN think?

That you are not for real???

Well, if it is private land with no rights of way, threats of legal action are probably just talk, aren't they? The walking group probably doesn't have very deep pockets.

apart from those map pockets, of course, but I doubt they contain dozens of used fifties.

If the walking group are threatening legal action they must think they have a case.

How long have people been allowed to walk there?

I can't say I care as am in Scotland where we have different right to roam laws.

Depends how long the path has been used for, doesn't it? Legally, I mean.

Do whatever u need to protect ur land.

Good luck

Can you contact the Council and get advice from them? It might be that because you've allowed it in the past that you've set a precedent. The Environment Agency were very helpful when my MIL had problems with a public footpath on thier land.

I think that if it is private land with no legal access, you can do what you like.

But you ought to check with a solicitor, are there laws about if you let the public use a path for so long it does become a right of way? Maybe not, I don't know, but you should check out legally where you stand.

No idea the law but are you sure they have no rights at all because they have been using it already?

I bet this will end in a bun fight.

I'm afraid Oofy, they actually probably have quite a lot of rights. I happen to know quite a lot about rights of way law now since have just had a protracted battle with local council re an application to open a ROW through garden of a house we were buying...

will explain more shortly but am eating curry already interrupted by BF baby!

The previous family didn't allow any access at all. We've been here 8 years. Do squatters rights apply to land in terms of gaining permanent access?

I'm seeing solicitor Monday to check but I'm getting my knickers in a twist about it now.

lol @ map pockets

Squatters rights do not apply at all in this situation - they are to do with actual possession of property (and occasionally land) through residence.

Long reply - sorry!

RoW law in England pretty much trumps all other laws, including privacy and property laws, human rights law etc..

The group will either probably try to exercise the 'it's been used for years' argument thus it is a de facto and historic RoW, and if there's any older historical evidence to suggest use: eg longstanding personal accounts from before you were owners, they will have a strong case. Or they may - as in our case - use some actual historical evidence, such as an actual order or old map to demonstrate that it exists in actual law. In our case, the malevolent nutter Ramblers Association member, who applied to have the RoW opened used an old map. we were told there was NOTHING we could do, if the application was upheld and could have been forced to allow people to walk through our garden. We were duly refused a mortgage on the basis of this pending application.

We won though by providing alternate historical evidence which showed the route applied for was wrong - ie did not cross our potential garden...

You need specialist legal advice, will try and dig up name of the person I almost used.

Would also suggest if you have time, ask for copy of formal application from the group from your council to see where exactly they are claiming a path...

And then go to your local record office/archive and ask to see any right of way stuff covering that land in their quarter sessions documents

I would also suggest you adopt a conciliatory tone with the walkers and try to compromise and the law is very much on their side however much you feel it is wrong. You can apply for a diversion order if a right of way is established but they have the upper hand...

...and it isn't necessarily wrong that they do, since most private property was 'claimed' by rich landowners from 'common land' many centuries ago and the right to roam freely is a very sensitive political issue and also very complex. Your recent ownership unfortunately doesn't begin to touch the historic rights that were established long ago...

HTH - will post more on this if you want...

Sorry, I meant squatters rights as a loose description of the situation whereby, having let people wander through the fields for a few years, can they now demand it as a permanent right of way?

monkeybird thinks yes.

you can't block existing footpaths. if the path has been used historically you're onto a loser if you try to fight it. also, why does it bother you so much? if they do anything antisocial you can turf them off your land, but if they are just walking on a path that has been used forever, find some other part of you 60 acres to fence off surely?

Depends how many years, how permission was granted etc etc.

'Squatters rights' I am fairly good on - but this is RoW legislation and I know very little about it.

now you see this is why mumsnet is truly great. the chances of monkeybird having the exact knowledge you need is pretty slim, elsewhere than on mn

They may have a legal case.

A public right of way can come into existence by long use. A "way over any land [...] that has actually been enjoyed by the public as of right and without interruption for a full period of 20 years" will be presumed to be dedicated as a highway (i.e. be a right of way).

This presumption will be rebutted if there is evidence that there was no intention to make a highway, but the presumption does favours the existence of the right of way.

This is why a landowner who wants to allow public access across his or her land for the time being, but not create a permanent right of way, should always make his or her intentions very clear from the beginning. This is why you get those signs around the place specifically stating that a path is not dedicated to the public -- to protect the landowner from the presumption that by giving the public access they were creating a right of way. Other landowners have made a point of formally "closing" paths for one token day each year to make it clear that access is by permission only.

How long have local people been walking in the area? If it's more than 20 years then they may be able to argue that a right of way has been established by long use. Have there historically been any signs up to make the status of the land (i.e. private land with access only by permission, not as of right) clear? Have you moved fences and things around before to block paths?

Thanks monkey, that's brilliant. Well, actually it's shit, but you know what I mean!

I'm pretty sure that historically there's nothing listed. No droving or church walks etc.

It's not so much the access that bothers me, if it was I would have told them to fuck off ages ago . It's the upkeep of paths and any fencing I have to do. Moving electric fencing about is hard enough without having to put access gates in it and hang little signs all over it saying bitch in charge has connected this to the national grid or er, danger, electric fence!

Sorry, typed really slowly while watching Blazing Saddles.

If they weren't allowed on the land before you acquired it eight years ago, and you can prove that, then they almost certainly don't have a case for establishing it as a public right of way.

But probably worth instructing a solicitor to handle the dispute. You don't want to mess this one up and wind up with a legal right of way across your land.

For more information on the law you can usually find your local council's policy via their Environment and Planning pages or perhaps their Leisure Services dept...

Your council may well (as ours does) have a huge backlog of cases to reopen or redesignate RoWs. Ours had someone in their Legal Services dept who ONLY dealt with these. Walkers groups all over the country make these applications some genuine, some apparently just spoilers (ie your path may be a genuine walked path, ours was one that had never existed and ran through a number of small domestic gardens). There is also a deadline for paths to be approved (not sure when) - ask your council when yours is likely to be heard at a tribunal. It may be that it never gets dealt with... but I still think you'd be best not acting like a lord of the manor and actually finding a suitable alternative that makes everyone happy...

Govt Planning Inspectorate oversees the law:

link here

Office of Deputy Prime Minister (I think) oversees them and makes final adjudications

The specialist solicitor who is known for being the expert on RoW cases is Michael Orlik at Lodders (google them, they have a website) He was very good on the phone to me and gave me some useful tips.

OS maps are a good starting point

held at most local archives and also available on line for the first ed

www.old-maps.co.uk/

Then asking for enclosure awards, some info on enclosure awards

www.surreycc.gov.uk/sccwebsite/sccwspages.nsf/LookupWebPagesByTITLE_RTF/Enclosure+awards?opendocumen t

Please be aware that they are old documents and really not easy to read, bit like reading knitting.

Googling your county archive will give you some information on what they hold - of course it will only be held by the council if it has survived and if it was handed in in the first place to the archive. If not there may not be a record.

Don'y forget to allow plenty of time for research........ If it gets that far

soph - People walking here doesn't bother me at all. I moved the fence because the cows need the grass in that area. People can still walk round it - there are no defined footpaths, they wander about where they like.

port&lemonaid - that's v. interesting. It's much less than 20 years, about 5 or 6 I should think. And we do move the fencing around a lot depending on grass/weather etc so no particular area has ever been used exclusively as a footpath.

ooffy