To think parents of SN children should automatically get legal aid?

[SquarePegInACircularHole]

We have spent years fighting the system for support for our SN child. It is a complicated system to navigate and is literally a baptism by fire (well in DS’s case anyway). The local council will try every trick in the book to get out of their responsibilities and avoid extra funding IME and many other families I’ve spoken to, while parents are already in a stressful situation trying to deal with challenges at home.

I was recently quoted upwards of £10k by a specialist solicitor to assist with a SN Tribunal including professional reports which are needed for evidence.

Seriously! Many parents of SN children have to give up careers or can’t work due to the needs of the child, not being able to get wraparound school care, especially with teens etc. So it’s only well off families who can actually afford to fight for proper provision for their children while poorer families are left hanging with little support and much worse outcomes for their DC as usual!

We can now get legal aid as DS is an adult so he’s entitled to it in his own right but if we’d had it about 5 years ago when he was still a child. we may not have been in the situation we’re in now!

AIBU?

But at what point is the cut off? I have an autistic dd and a dyslexic dd - both had individualised education plans as were and the elder autistic dd would have benefited from a school designed for higher functioning very bright quiet autistic girls but they do not exist in this area (the specialist units are full of rough boys) should I have been given funding? Actually I advocated for her myself and essentially got her individualised teaching, own office space at school with lap top and supply of cups of tea (sounds silly but the tea helped) whereas the solicitor when I spoke to one for a free consultation suggested she board half way across the country at £70k a year and we would fight for funding aka solicitor get paid a fortune.

Solicitors do not have your childrens interests at heart and funding from the public purse will make it worse - your mp is the person to approach

Something like 4% of send appeals were decided in councils’ favour last year. Since 2015 it averages 7% in councils’ favour. On that basis are you absolutely sure you need legal representation, given the likelihood of success?

YANBU. We do not qualify for legal aid and we can't afford to pay for our own legal representation so I've had to do it all myself. It truly sucks. I don't work so I have dedicated my life to my children.

@Meraas

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post

Do you realise how much tax payers money is wasted by local authorities fighting against what young people are entitled to? (90% or more appeals are successful!)

Do you know how much tax payers money is wasted pushing on with unsuitable provision making things worse rather than getting things right from the off?

Do you know how much tax payers money is saved by unpaid carers doing the job of a small army single handed whilst also fighting the system to get the basics their child is entitled to?

I could carry on but the jist is it’s not parent carers who are wasting tax payers money!

@Ozanj

Not everyone get the diagnosis they want, some people are literally unique, the reason the drs can't give you a name of what is wrong is that they literally do not have one.

DD's autism presentation is atypical, the reason the dr feels it's useful is that she does meet the criteria and it opens doors for services but she has a lot of other things going on too, is apparently probably a syndrome that will get a name at some point and her nurse specialist has asked for permission to write about her presentation (without name obviously) in a medical journal

@custardbear

Just a thought but would insurance policies help with the legal costs?

Interestingly I was looking at my insurance policy the other day and wondering this. There are a lot of exclusions and I think basically they will only cover appeals for Mainstream school placements

This would save parents a fortune and thus cost the councils/government a fortune so I’m fairly sure it would never happen!

The cut-off would be very difficult to determine-though. Would it be everyone with a diagnosis? Everyone on the SEN register? Everyone with an EHC plan? Everyone with an EHC but only those receiving over £X funding with it?

I agree with previous posters-the money would be far better spend on ensuring there were enough appropriate school places, more funding to access NHS OTs/SaLTs and more paediatricians so the waiting lists weren’t so long.

YANBU, if I could have my time again I would have wanted to take the LEA to court to provide better education for my DS. He would have done far better in a school that catered for boys with ASD. There are so many failings that took place it would fill a book, mainstream education just wasn't for him but having to take on the system just wasn't feasible without legal assistance.

@Meraas

How much can the taxpayer fund for parents who choose to have children?

Ableist.

BTW I didn't have a crystal ball prior to having children, could anyone lend me theirs?

@Kite22

I'd have thought the money would be FAR better spent in the first place actually providing enough school places / SaLTs / OTs / Paediatricians / EPs / all the mental health teams / specialist teachers etc, rather than funding lawyers and massively expensive court cases. All those people cost a LOT less than lawyers do.

And if this was done, there would be vastly fewer parents needing to fund lawyers and massively expensive court cases.

It’s all right saying there is only so much tax payers can pay but. The thing is though a lot of Sen children end up costing more than if the right provision had just been out in the first place. Councils try to get out of providing something for so long (which I can understand to a certain extend due to budgets) and there’s no joined up thinking or thinking about things long term. My child for example was in mainstream, things weren’t working, at that time I even remember saying “if we can get a few good years of support the hopefully he’ll be independent for secondary”. Took us 3 years to get support in place including one tribunal by which time it wasn’t enough as things had escalated Duke to having no support and he ended up having to move to a specialist placement which was another fight. In the meantime we also had a social services investigation brought on through reporting of an incident which occurred due to stress. Luckily son now settled and happy in specialist but it’s expensive compared to mainstream plus the la pay for transport. So have they saved money in the long run, probably not. We are by no means unique.

@ChuckBerrysBoots - i have been to tribunal without legal representation and I would say you need very good literacy skills, good organisation skills and a lot of time. A lot of children with SEN require a lot of support so time isnt plentiful. And a lot of SEN runs in families so its not a given that the literacy and organisational skills will be there.

Fighting the system is by far the toughest part of raising a child with additional needs for many parents. You shouldn’t have to know the laws inside out to stand any chance of getting basic provision and you certainly shouldn’t have to quote that law to “experts” in order to get the provision.

It’s worth reading up the rules as in Scotland it used to be the case the child qualified for legal aid but a guardian fought the case on there behalf. I don’t know if that’s still the rules but it definitely was 3 years ago as an education lawyer held a conference near me were he told us that. As a parent of an autistic child who has ADHD i really feel for you. I had to move my ds in Primary 1 as his previous school didn’t meet his needs but my local council agreed the placement to his new school within 2 hours rather than the normal 8 weeks after the complaint I put in. What was done to him was outright disability discrimination and the council new it. Thankfully his next school was and still is amazing

Legal aid? No. Better services? Yes. And the problem with simply having legal aid to help fight against your local authority is that often things need put in place before diagnosis, so legal aid would presumably not be available at that point.

I live in Scotland and have never had an issue with the provision. I often read on here about how awful things are for pupils in England. The answer isn't legal aid though.

@Onionpatch I don’t disagree, but I also think that can be said of the entire EHCP process, in terms of needing to be pretty skilled to navigate and have the time to do so. SEND issues are a big part of my job but I would say the vast, vast majority of parents approaching the organisation I work for are from the educated middle class. The system disenfranchises a huge number of parents, and therefore their children, by its complexity and lack of advocacy.

Having said that, the OP here seems to know what they’re doing and what they’re talking about so could potentially give it a good go without representation. A quick read suggests legal aid doesn’t cover the cost of representation at the appeal itself in most cases, so its value is in the preparation, and I suspect there are relatively few legal firms sufficiently skilled in SEND to make their intervention more worthwhile than what a parent can achieve themselves if they have the time, resources and capacity to do so.

Nope.
Instead of legal wrangling that does nothing except line the lawyers pockets, education should be properly funded so everyone's needs are met.
Respite, therapy etc should also be properly funded so those who require it can access it in a reasonable time scale.

I have heard of children receiving legal aid to take juridical review proceedings, so it does seem odd that it’s not an option in send appeals.

We’ve spent around £50k in legal fees and professional reports in the last few years for tribunal. Our son is an adult so in theory could have got legal aid in his name, however I didn’t know that at the time and since I’ve heard horror stories of parents that have used the legal aid SEN lawyers as they are so overwhelmed. In our case the LA didn’t even put up a fight just pushed all the directions to the last day until they couldn’t get away with it any longer. The submitted a scrap of paper from years ago as their “evidence”. It was a case they could never win and that’s what bothers me. They didn’t spend a penny but pushed us to financial ruin.

“So it’s only well off families who can actually afford to fight for proper provision for their children while poorer families are left hanging with little support and much worse outcomes for their DC as usual! “

We aren’t well off at all, we spent everything we had fighting for our son plus a lot more we didn’t have.

@Meraas

How much can the taxpayer fund for parents who choose to have children?

Unbelievable. Most SEN tribunal cases are won by parents. LA’s rarely win and rarely spend any actual money as in our case. They just push parents to see who will give up. When they see parents won’t give in they give up.

They spend a fair bit, mostly to end up losing

www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2021/december/councils-waste-%C2%A3253-million-fighting-parents-send-tribunals-2014

I live in Scotland and have never had an issue with the provision. I often read on here about how awful things are for pupils in England. The answer isn't legal aid though.

I’m in Scotland too and have just been told my DD will have specialist provision for high school, which she really needs. I expected to have to fight her corner, but the assessment process was pretty conclusive and the decision making easy. The school identified for her will be perfect for her needs, it’s literally the only thing I’ve not had to fight about.

I think the complexity of the system needs to change so parents don’t need a PhD to find out what should be provided and argue their case. I suspect though the system is purposefully complex to present a barrier to parents so LAs can save money on SEN provision. I know my stuff and am very used to finding my way found the system - I worry for kids with less able parents, or those who are too busy coping with parenting to do the research needed to fight for their kids. The LA have a duty to provide safe, appropriate education to kids, there should be no need for a fight.