Emily Oster on Breastfeeding - minimal benefits.

[IamOvercome]

I am pregnant with my first and am an economist so I was recommended books by fellow economist Emily Oster. The books don’t give advice. They review the statistical studies underlying pregnancy advice and whether they are any good or not.

It’s been such an eye opener. For example it is pushed pushed and pushed some more that breast is best. But when you review the evidence there is minimal evidence for benefits of breastfeeding for babies. The strongest evidence is actually for mothers that it can marginally reduce chance of breast cancer in later life.

Same with not introducing babies to bottle to confuse them when breastfeeding. Literally no concrete evidence for it.

Yet this is all pushed as clear cut facts by midwives and other health professionals.

@WonderfulYou

My breast fed friends kids all got COVID and generally seem much sicker than my son. It’s sort of thrown the ‘makes their immune system stronger’ comments out the window for me.

You can only pass on antibodies if you’ve already had something.
So unless your kids are less than 3 then they won’t have antibodies for covid but will have antibodies for other illnesses you may have had.

But we are told immunity wears off anyway after 6 months if you have caught covid.

“ My breast fed friends kids all got COVID and generally seem much sicker than my son. It’s sort of thrown the ‘makes their immune system stronger’ comments out the window for me”

I thought you couldn’t tell any differences between breast and formula fed children. It works both ways. FWIW I have never noticed any trends either way

I think by saying ‘breast is best’ is only specific to one or two issues in the debate. Breast may be better in terms of nutrition for many babies (although formula is a very close second), but there are so many other factors at play. Mothers will have their own needs as well as the baby. Formula might be ‘best’ for some babies and mothers. It’s completely down to the individual to work out what is best for them and their child. Unfortunately, as proved on here, there can be some people that believe their way is best and are dismissive of other people’s lived experiences. This horrible meanness makes women feel miserable at a very important and emotional stage of their life and does not help any with any PND they may experience. Some of the posters on here have been utterly vile, and this bullying of mothers that needs to stop.

That’s so interesting about caffeine and miscarriage.

Does she say anything about the data on c-sections vs vaginal births? (I know I can read the book, I’m just interested).

@Babdoc

The real benefits of breast feeding only apply in the third world, where formula is made up with dirty water from unchlorinated sources, causing diarrhoea and deaths in infants. Here in the UK, it makes damn all difference, and as a doctor I am delighted that a credible statistician has finally published this. Perhaps we can now see the end of poor depressed mothers beating themselves up for “failing” to breast feed. A mafia of midwives and breast feeding mothers has controlled the narrative for far too long, to the detriment of women. Feed your baby by whatever method best suits you, secure in the knowledge that your way is as good as any other. And don’t let anyone guilt trip or pressure you.

THIS (And I have NEVER done a "This" post in my life)

@TopCatsTopHat

The trouble is that decent statistical evidence for anything breast feeding related is hard to come by because large scale studies of the kind, that are scientifically valuable like double blind, controlled etc are ethically impossible to conduct so as an analyst you are always dealing with data which is likely collected for another reason and contaminated by uncontrolled variables.

This. There’s little point saying “stats say this” when no rigorous, controlled research and investigations have been done, just observation and collection of data.

Same with what you can and can’t eat during pregnancy and so on. I think it’s a sign of our times that we’re so reliant on stats (not judging I’m the same), as we’ve lost the community generational maternal and natal wisdom that was shared when women’s work and network was child rearing and housework.

the whole breast is best thing is bollocks anyway as everyone is an individual at least formula has the correct amount of vitamins and minerals in it

I’d say it’s the opposite.
Breast milk constantly changes to meet the baby’s needs but it’s a lot harder with formula fed as you keep them on the same stuff for a long time and have to try and guess when to change it and things.
There are also hundreds of different varieties so knowing which one to get is very difficult.

@IamOvercome

I just want to say I didn’t start this thread as a breast v formula feeding thread.

I went to a breastfeeding antenatal course and it said breast is best, listing off benefits from reduced ear infections to intelligence etc for the child.

I then read this book and saw that the data underlying these pronouncements is massively flawed and even where it is correct for reduction of ear infections/diarrhoea it was something like a 6% chance of it happening versus a 13% so pretty marginal.

I was just surprised there is so little proper evidence yet breastfeeding is given as only correct choice and honestly it was really really pushed as the only choice for the child. But most of the benefits even on this thread and in the research are more for mothers than babies.

You don't need to justify yourself OP. Intelligent women implicitly understand this. Whether they think this economist is flawed or not - they have reasoned and rational arguments which are interesting.

Ignore the comments quoting back the NHS or reducing the debate down to 'just do what you want to do'. They don't 'get it' and you'll never be able to explain it. Doesn't matter how you word it, they will never understand you're just trying to have a conversation about something compelling that you recently read.

This is a perfectly relevant topic and discussion for a site like mumsnet. You keep going. You've done nothing wrong. You're going to get backlash though which is why I said - you're brave! But it's a good discussion when the right people come along to debate it ;-)

@Qwill Unfortunately, as proved on here, there can be some people that believe their way is best and are dismissive of other people’s lived experiences. This horrible meanness makes women feel miserable at a very important and emotional stage of their life and does not help any with any PND they may experience. Some of the posters on here have been utterly vile, and this bullying of mothers that needs to stop

It’s so true. I’m glad I posted this while pregnant and so technically on neither side of breast re formula and not vulnerable. Despite trying to do a post on how interesting the book was and whether others had read it, agreed or disagreed the nasty breast is best brigade were out in full

• saying the author only wrote the book as she couldn’t breastfeed (she breastfed both her kids)
• saying I’m just talking about the book as I can’t breastfeed (no baby here yet)
• saying I’m using the book to make myself feel less guilty about failing my child by not breastfeeding (again no baby here)
• saying I’m using the book as an excuse for how I want to formula feed ( ignoring I said I’m actually planning to breast feed)

And on and on.

A vulnerable mum should take heed! Not sure what is wrong with all those posters that they go completely off their heads and start ranting and raving if someone questions their choice to breastfeed. It’s completely illogical.

@WonderfulYou

the whole breast is best thing is bollocks anyway as everyone is an individual at least formula has the correct amount of vitamins and minerals in it

I’d say it’s the opposite.
Breast milk constantly changes to meet the baby’s needs but it’s a lot harder with formula fed as you keep them on the same stuff for a long time and have to try and guess when to change it and things.
There are also hundreds of different varieties so knowing which one to get is very difficult.

we live in a country where people are skipping meals, heat or eat etc i find it hard to believe that it has everything a baby needs in it, when malnutrition and deficiencies are on the rise in this country.

dont know what you mean about the formula, theres normally 3 stages of them

Thanks though to the posters who engaged. I’m going to read all the extra links and book suggestions given.

@IamOvercome Your most recent post really chimes. Like you I really want to breast feed and every intention of trying. I cannot understand why people who breastfed are so determined to discredit all the other options. I don't know anyone who didn't want to at least try. All any of us are saying is that the benefits of breast feeding don't tally with the levels to which women are made to feel guilty if they don't.

@Danikm151

Antibodies, comfort, less cost. The list of benefits goes on

My bottle fed babies had plenty of comfort. They just didn't get it from my breasts. You do know that bottle fed babies are still held, stroked, nuzzled, right?

@sevensleeps

I think for the baby there are similar benefits that are difficult to capture and measure. You can see how instantly soothed babies are at the breast (most of the time haha!). How much they like breast milk. How peaceful it is for them. Toddlers also can often show or tell you more directly what it means to them. I don't want to talk too much about the IME very powerful bonding and emotional security (again instantly available when needed- invaluable IME on rough days for example) that are part of BF because it is so often taken as FF bashing or something. That's not how I intend it at all, but equally that doesn't mean that it's not the case that it means a lot to a baby

How do you have any possible way of knowing that your bonding experience was more powerful than anyone using formula? You don't.

[quote IamOvercome]**@Qwill* Unfortunately, as proved on here, there can be some people that believe their way is best and are dismissive of other people’s lived experiences. This horrible meanness makes women feel miserable at a very important and emotional stage of their life and does not help any with any PND they may experience. Some of the posters on here have been utterly vile, and this bullying of mothers that needs to stop*

It’s so true. I’m glad I posted this while pregnant and so technically on neither side of breast re formula and not vulnerable. Despite trying to do a post on how interesting the book was and whether others had read it, agreed or disagreed the nasty breast is best brigade were out in full

• saying the author only wrote the book as she couldn’t breastfeed (she breastfed both her kids)
• saying I’m just talking about the book as I can’t breastfeed (no baby here yet)
• saying I’m using the book to make myself feel less guilty about failing my child by not breastfeeding (again no baby here)
• saying I’m using the book as an excuse for how I want to formula feed ( ignoring I said I’m actually planning to breast feed)

And on and on.

A vulnerable mum should take heed! Not sure what is wrong with all those posters that they go completely off their heads and start ranting and raving if someone questions their choice to breastfeed. It’s completely illogical.[/quote]
And the difficulty is... I was made to feel like shit for breastfeeding. Some of the horrendous things people said to me. I'm not sure what the cause and effect is here, but I reckon there's just a small minority in each camp who are vocal as fuck and ruining it for the rest of us. Unintentionally I'm sure, but things like "I cannot understand why people who breastfed are so determined to discredit all the other options." (from LittleGwyneth) nicely show the problem. It's not ALL women who breastfeed. It's a small minority. But people seem to think ALL women who breastfeed feel superior and that might be why I got such crap thrown at me despite sitting quietly in the corner.

When I ask diagnosed with breast cancer one of my anxieties was that somehow it was linked to the fact that I didn’t breastfeed, so I checked with the breast surgeon. He said the evidence around that had been from a study done in women in the third world, who have loads of kids one after the other, eg 7 babies in 7 years. Basically the protection seemed to come from being constantly pregnant and /or breastfeeding. He said it just couldn’t be applied to first world women having 2 or 3 babies a couple of years apart.

Tbh. I've been breastfeeding continuously now for 4 years and my 3 year old (not bf anymore since I got pregnant) and my 10 month old. Seem to handle illness better than my friends who formula feed.

My son catches everything off his sister at nursery and it's gone within a day or so, where as my friends babies seem to require hospital admission etc.

And it's same with my family members babies to. So I don't think it's a coincidence.

I think the benefits are far greater and also I find it easy to have a tool on my body that stops any tantrum/hunger/boredom On hand

But feed how YOU want, apart from what I mentioned above, you can't tell a bf or ff baby apart mostly anyway, and specially not at nursery.

@SickAndTiredAgain yes she does exactly that- that’s the selling point of her book is that the methodology is explained- so she explains what studies have been carried out & how the research sample is generated and what effect this can have on the narrative of the conclusion.

The book itself is not her opinion but more an analysis of lots of different research and in depth look at how that research has been ‘made’ as she rightfully argues that a lot of studies give misleading results or mixed narratives because research is only as good as the methodology! If you’re pregnant & reading this thread - I’d highly recommend this book! Xo

I have absolutely no gauge at all for how quickly my friends’ children recover from illnesses, nor whether they breastfed or formula fed or mix fed.

@Lockheart

First of all, how you choose to feed your baby is your business and your business alone.

Secondly, I think breast is best but the benefits are marginal and only observable at a population level. Whether you bottle or breast feed will not make a material difference to you / your child. If you take a class of pre-schoolers, teenagers, or a university cohort you will have no way of telling who was breast or bottle fed.

Breastfeeding is great, but it doesn't guarantee your child will get into Oxbridge any more than bottle feeding condemns your child to a life of crime.

🙌🏻

@MissyB1

When I ask diagnosed with breast cancer one of my anxieties was that somehow it was linked to the fact that I didn’t breastfeed, so I checked with the breast surgeon. He said the evidence around that had been from a study done in women in the third world, who have loads of kids one after the other, eg 7 babies in 7 years. Basically the protection seemed to come from being constantly pregnant and /or breastfeeding. He said it just couldn’t be applied to first world women having 2 or 3 babies a couple of years apart.

Poor you @MissyB1 I hope you are doing ok. This is part of the issue. The studies don’t often aren’t applicable yet they are taken as fact by health professionals. From what I remember in Oster book it’s something like a 5% lesser chance of getting breast cancer if breastfeeding so marginal. Also so much is not applicable to someone living in a western developed country.

@apple93 unfortunately everything you’re saying is purely anecdotal evidence. Policy shouldn’t be made on anecdotal evidence. For example, my DM and DH weren’t breastfeed - both v healthy, never even catch a cold, full of energy etc. I was breastfeed - I have allergies, sinus issues, catch every cold going. So if I took this as fact I would conclude it’s healthier not to breastfeed. There are anecdotal stories to support every view.

@apple93

Tbh. I've been breastfeeding continuously now for 4 years and my 3 year old (not bf anymore since I got pregnant) and my 10 month old. Seem to handle illness better than my friends who formula feed.

My son catches everything off his sister at nursery and it's gone within a day or so, where as my friends babies seem to require hospital admission etc.

And it's same with my family members babies to. So I don't think it's a coincidence.

I think the benefits are far greater and also I find it easy to have a tool on my body that stops any tantrum/hunger/boredom On hand

But feed how YOU want, apart from what I mentioned above, you can't tell a bf or ff baby apart mostly anyway, and specially not at nursery.

Your friends children are hospitalisation often for nursery acquired illnesses?

I love Emily Oster. An actual sensible review of the data. I recommend her to all of my pregnant friends.

@Peasock yes! The friend I'm talking about her baby same age as mine and son (in my daughters class)

Every time they catch something the baby always requires admission. It must be like the 6th time she's had a few days stay!

@apple93

Tbh. I've been breastfeeding continuously now for 4 years and my 3 year old (not bf anymore since I got pregnant) and my 10 month old. Seem to handle illness better than my friends who formula feed.

My son catches everything off his sister at nursery and it's gone within a day or so, where as my friends babies seem to require hospital admission etc.

And it's same with my family members babies to. So I don't think it's a coincidence.

I think the benefits are far greater and also I find it easy to have a tool on my body that stops any tantrum/hunger/boredom On hand

But feed how YOU want, apart from what I mentioned above, you can't tell a bf or ff baby apart mostly anyway, and specially not at nursery.

Well I was fed SMA, my brother got pap and my sister was breastfed.

I only had one serious childhood illness (diphtheria), me and my brother have not been in and out of hospital for sickness. my sister is a type 1 diabetic, who cant absorb iron from food and has heart diseases, she's underweight and always looked pale and sickly.

my son was fed Hipp organic, I took him to the hospital twice when he was a toddler for dehydration, because he caught a vomiting bug which caused him to refuse to drink, he is now 11 apart from his stubbornness over that the only thing he's been to hospital for was stitches.

and during the pandemic there was a covid case in his class ever 3 to 7 days prompting 2 weeks of home schooling each time, they were all getting it for months some of them repeatedly, my son didn't.