Swimming lessons for 4 year old.

[EezyOozy]

My 4 year old is a total non-swimmer. We've been to the pool a few times and she splashes about a bit in the shallows mostly. I've tried to get a feel for swimming by getting her too hold on to the side and kick, or kick while I support her, but I've no idea what I'm doing.

She didn't go swimming due to Covid then we relocated and she's been on a waiting list for months.

Finally at the top of the list. She has a place in a preschooler class for 3-4 year olds. It's in the "small" pool, which is very shallow at one end and up to my shoulders at the deep end. The pool is divided in two for lessons and her class is in the deeper half.

I'm not allowed poolside, I know this is normal and the reasons for this, don't really like it though! The first battle will be actually having her be willing to go in, she won't know anyone . Anyway I'm trying to make her feel excited and grown up.

No arm bands are used. Don't like this either for a total non swimmer in the deeper half of the pool, but I know the reasons for this.

There is a ratio of 8 children to 1 teacher. So there will be 16 children in the pool with 2 teachers and 2 lifeguard watching. I don't like this either ! It seems too many kids!

I've spoken to the teacher about my concerns and she's lovely and I'm sure a great teacher... but I still feel uneasy about it.

I tend to be an anxious parent.... I know this. And I know she needs to learn to swim.

If I could find private lessons with a much smaller child ratio I would , but there doesn't seem to be anything around !

Would you all be ok with these lessons ? Am I being silly?

By 5yo they should already be swimming adequately across the width of an Olympic pool and gave the basics down pat and then it’s a matter of building on them, not starting

As a swimming teacher this is non sense. I have one just turn 6 year old in my stage 6/7 it's rare.

I think @HoppingPavlova just means a width of a pool eg 10m which lots of 6 & 7 year olds who've had lessons will be able to do.

The risk of a 4 year old falling unsupervised into a pool, creek or dam is very low though. Most 4 year olds in the UK absolutely can't swim 10m unaided unless they happen to have a swimming pool at home, which is very unusual.

It is normal for 3/4 year olds to go in the pool without parents. Although, parents were able to go into the pool if they wanted, but we were also able to sit as the side of the pool. My DD was recently having swimming lessons in a pool at was 1m deep in the deep end. However, in my DD lesson there was a maximum of 6 children per lesson (one instructor) and no one else using the pool. Often there would be only 3/4 children in the lesson. My DD now moved up to stage 1 and is doing lessons in the big pool but I have only ever seen a maximum of 4 children in her lesson. Often it’s two or three children. I’m happy to pay a little bit more as I know that they have less kids in each lesson especially when they are small.

Mine never wore armbands, they use floats or pool noodles in their lessons or a shark fin. They started aged 3 in a pool they couldn’t stand up in. Was never an issue. When it’s not their turn they would sit on pool side.

I don’t think it’s normal to be allowed poolside. Even at the height of the pandemic parents were allowed poolside when lessons resumed.
I wouldn’t be happy with my kids not being able to touch the floor. Mine learn in a shallow pool and whenever my son (who is the smallest in the class) ends up over the deeper side the teacher beckons him back to the shallow bit

That was meant to say I don’t think it’s normal to NOT be allowed poolside

OP,
I was advised years ago that children got the most from swimming lessons having been in school for one year.

The reason being they were used to following instructions etc.

Now obviously some people are happy to do lessons for fun, but we weren't!

So we left them for after their first year of school and they flew at them.

We actually found individual lessons far more cost effective time wise and financially, but some children love the group classes.

My 4 year old non swimmer started lessons in January, due to covid regulations parents were not even allowed to stay in the building once your child had been changed into swim wear, you has to wait outside in your car until the lesson finished. The pool is very cold and at first he wouldn't even stay in the pool and they just left him sat shivering on the poolside instead of calling me or his dad to come and get him. We bought him a wetsuit and he does actually participate now. His class is a similar size as your child's and there are 2 instructors in the pool and one life guard. They are in the shallow part of the pool. Now they have relaxed covid regulations and parents are allowed in but you have to go upstairs and watch from a viewing window. It's OK but it makes me feel anxious the same as you.

@Bananarama21

By 5yo they should already be swimming adequately across the width of an Olympic pool and gave the basics down pat and then it’s a matter of building on them, not starting

As a swimming teacher this is non sense. I have one just turn 6 year old in my stage 6/7 it's rare.

Really? All the kids in my daughter's swim class (age 5-7) swim 60% of the lesson without armbands, and they're all able to do at least a single length of the 25 yard pool on their fronts and back. I'd be quite confident that my 5 year old could manage it.

Meatshake

I would be interested to know the stage your talking about? I've been a swimming teacher for several years and never known that to be the case. I do have 6/7 year olds in stage 4 where they are working towards swim 25metres. I have one 5 year old in stage 5, and the 6 year old in stage 6/7 I mentioned it's considered to be rare they all swim properly no armbands. Also why on earth would a class have arm bands on if they can swim in the first place its completely pointless for the 40 percent of the time. It actuallt alters buoyancy and limits movement, in particular the arm pull in front crawl and backstroke. I'm guessing they are swimming doggy paddle not front crawl?

I’m confident the children will either be holding on to the side or have noodles/floats to hold. Even though it’s no parents poolside surely you can watch discreetly from the entrance to the pool to see what it’s like? I’d try it before you discount it.

@OfstedOffred

By 5yo they should already be swimming adequately across the width of an Olympic pool and gave the basics down pat and then it’s a matter of building on them, not starting.

Many many children retain reflexes that mean they can't lift their head out of the water to breathe and swim proper strokes.

My focus is on not on children being taught the water safety type "swimming" where they are taught to get onto their backs to float and breathe, but on swimming proper strokes.

I don't know any children who were swimming unaided across an Olympic size pool by age 5 and I live in an affluent area where most children do baby swimming followed by preschool classes etc.

My own DS was taken swimming weekly, classes etc, grandparents have a pool so swam through most of the Covid period too. He just couldn't float. When on his back he was constantly fighting the urge to arch his back etc. It just came around the age of 5 and there on in he made far more progress in swimming. Most in his class were like this.

My son is 5 and has just got his 25m badge. He obviously has to swim unaided for this. Many others in his class have got the same award.

My 2 year old has her 5m badge. If you teach them young enough they can do it.

My 7 year old has his 50m badge and my 9 year their 400m badge. They’ve never worn arm bands as it affects their stroke.

Update- I have found a lady that does 1-to-1 (and some 2-to-1) swimming lessons about 35 minutes drive away in a small school pool. It's £20 per lesson but I might be able to send them both together/let them take turns. More expensive but this seems much much much better to me… I'm sure they will progress a lot quicker getting this attention. I have to start saving up as I've joined the waiting list! In the meantime I'll just take her to the council pool myself for fun. Perhaps when they are a little bit older and more competent they could go back to the council pool for the older kids classes.

Thank you so much for all the replies

ISmellBurnings11Troublesometooth

I teach school swimming aswell as learn to swim its rare we get children swimming that distance at that 5 as they might not have developed a strong enough leg kick its uncommon and rarely happens I've seen it happen about twice. I do have 7 year olds in stage 5s who swim 50 metres so that wouldn't be a surprise. 9 year old could potentially be a club swimmer so wouldn't suprise me those ages are different to a size of 5 year old child though on build and power alone.

@Bananarama21

Meatshake

I would be interested to know the stage your talking about? I've been a swimming teacher for several years and never known that to be the case. I do have 6/7 year olds in stage 4 where they are working towards swim 25metres. I have one 5 year old in stage 5, and the 6 year old in stage 6/7 I mentioned it's considered to be rare they all swim properly no armbands. Also why on earth would a class have arm bands on if they can swim in the first place its completely pointless for the 40 percent of the time. It actuallt alters buoyancy and limits movement, in particular the arm pull in front crawl and backstroke. I'm guessing they are swimming doggy paddle not front crawl?

The flow of the lesson is that they start off with 1 or 2 foam disks, do a doggy paddle esque warm up, practice some skills, then take them off to do widths, strokes, and play games. My kid understands the movements for breast stroke and front crawl but isn't quite there yet. They line up, do some jumping in, swim across and climb out. They're learning the fundamentals for diving (sit on the side, arms out, head down, fall in). At the end of the class they go down to the shallow end to practice swimming underwater and duck diving.

The school run their own grading system, (www.theswimschool.co.uk/swim-grades) but I can categorically state that all of the children in my daughter's improver class spend at least half the 45 min lesson without armbands. Her cousin is in the class and she turns 6 in a couple of weeks, there's a little boy who was 5 at Xmas and my kid turned 5 in November. The rest of the class of 8 are a bit older 6 or 7 I believe.

Meatshake so they aren't actually following the Swim England framework then? Where is the Aquatic breathing if they are doing doggy paddle? We do tiger arms in ducklings with a woggle to touch on it but stage 1 is face in kicking across with a float face in for 5 metres on their front and on their back with a float 5 metres. Our stage 2 we introduce front crawl for 5 metres face in and they learn to swim without a float on their back none of them wear armbands.. Honest as a trained school and learn 2 swim teacher it doesn't sound good and if anything it encourage poor technique for Aquatic and buoyancy (e.g floating, correct body position for swimming) these are the fundamentals which are the starting point for learning to swim. It doesn't sound like they remotely need armbands whatsoever. I actually do more in my ducklings class in terms of buoyancy and breathing than what you have described.

@HoppingPavlova

Laugh quietly all you want but it’s a relief to have young kids that are water safe and can swim. Yes, am in Australia and our kids generally swim by 5yo - because if they don’t high chance they will drown so it’s a pretty big incentive. I personally don’t know of any 5yo that couldn’t do the width of an Olympic pool unaided but there would be some, particularly as the demographic is changing. Oddly, immigrants don’t tend to place store on water safety and swimming (which reflects in rescue and drowning numbers), but first gen tends to follow the traditional route of starting water familiarisation and safety as babies.

There were no swim schools around when I was young but there were always a few informal schools in each neighbourhood (known as a backyard pool where someone took some cash) and we had all learnt to swim by the time we started school. Those who were good at it and wanted to pursue it then had training at the Olympic pools (pretty much each metro council had one), but no learn to swim schools to get you to that point like there are now, just Marjorie over in the next street at number 12.

Royal Life Saving Australia found that even amoung children attending private swimming lessons in Australia, the average age to be able to swim a width of an Olympic pool (25m) was 9+. Less than 10% of 5 year olds could swim over 15m. www.royallifesaving.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/37553/RLS_SwimSchoolData_BenchmarkReport_Part1_FINAL.pdf

I just followed their link you provided and they have zero clue how to run a swim programme. I'm actually gobsmacked, head out of the water first thing we teach them in ducklings and blowing bubbles kicking with their face in, in stage 1.

@Bananarama21

ISmellBurnings11Troublesometooth

I teach school swimming aswell as learn to swim its rare we get children swimming that distance at that 5 as they might not have developed a strong enough leg kick its uncommon and rarely happens I've seen it happen about twice. I do have 7 year olds in stage 5s who swim 50 metres so that wouldn't be a surprise. 9 year old could potentially be a club swimmer so wouldn't suprise me those ages are different to a size of 5 year old child though on build and power alone.

At the swim school my child goes to (which most of his school and our village use) the majority of children are swimming 25m by age 6 at the latest.

Troublesometooth frontcrawl 25 metres face in or doggy paddle?

Even before the pandemic, a quarter of children could not swim the statutory 25m by the end of year 6. The report says this will rise to 57 per cent of year 7s by 2025/26 unless some form of catch-up provision is put in place. Statically 1 in 4 children could not swim 25 metres by the end of leaving primary school. So when I hear all these amazing 5 years olds that can swim 25 metres is hard to believe, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, however it's a rarely happens.

@HoppingPavlova

Laugh quietly all you want but it’s a relief to have young kids that are water safe and can swim. Yes, am in Australia and our kids generally swim by 5yo - because if they don’t high chance they will drown so it’s a pretty big incentive. I personally don’t know of any 5yo that couldn’t do the width of an Olympic pool unaided but there would be some, particularly as the demographic is changing. Oddly, immigrants don’t tend to place store on water safety and swimming (which reflects in rescue and drowning numbers), but first gen tends to follow the traditional route of starting water familiarisation and safety as babies.

There were no swim schools around when I was young but there were always a few informal schools in each neighbourhood (known as a backyard pool where someone took some cash) and we had all learnt to swim by the time we started school. Those who were good at it and wanted to pursue it then had training at the Olympic pools (pretty much each metro council had one), but no learn to swim schools to get you to that point like there are now, just Marjorie over in the next street at number 12.

There just aren't the opportunities to replicate that level of experience in the UK. Only the very affluent have the land to have private pools, outdoor/ open water is cold for the vast majority of the year, and there just isn't the public pool provision to pick up the slack. Then the pool programmes are very congested (ironically often with lessons) so the windows avaliable to casually swim for fun are very limited, and you have to go for lessons to get a regular spot.

School swimming isn't standardised in approach but there's about a year's worth of lessons at some point between 7-11. Some do it in a block. Some do it a term at a time.

DS2's y4's just lost half their lessons to Covid issues and donating time to the year above so they got something. Most of our school have extra-curricular lessons and are the better swimmers out of schools in the city. We ended up with half swimming 25m competently, ⅔s swimming 25m at all, and 5 or 6 in the class not ready to try. Without Covid issues DS1's year had all swimming or trying 25m but a couple still reaching for the side for confidence. Without Covid, in areas where the access to private lessons, the outcomes for 8-9 yo's is more like the ratios in DS2's class. There just isn't the infrastructure to get more children swimming cheaply.

Culture also affects access to swimming with rates of swimmers differing in different communities.

@Bananarama21

Troublesometooth frontcrawl 25 metres face in or doggy paddle?

Even before the pandemic, a quarter of children could not swim the statutory 25m by the end of year 6. The report says this will rise to 57 per cent of year 7s by 2025/26 unless some form of catch-up provision is put in place. Statically 1 in 4 children could not swim 25 metres by the end of leaving primary school. So when I hear all these amazing 5 years olds that can swim 25 metres is hard to believe, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, however it's a rarely happens.

Face in, front crawl with side breathing. He can also easily do it back stroke.

I’m honestly amazed that some year 6’s can’t swim 25m! I assumed all 5 year olds were similar to the ones I know. We do have an absolutely amazing swim school, but I assumed other areas would have similar.

I couldn't swim 25m until I had 1:1 lessons with an instructor in the water with me.
DM didn't do swimming because it was cold and wet and intermittent school lessons from y2 to y6 (more than most schools have access to now, and many have lost their pools due to reaching end of life and maintainence costs) with an instructor standing at the side, flailing around and yelling into all the background noise of the water, echo and other flailing instructors managed to teach me pretty much nothing. Dyspraxia could be a factor too.

Access to swimming is poor. It costs money and time in transport. It needs willing parents. Practice. Lessons, and getting back to the original theme of the thread, lessons can be hard to find capacity in. Even within a swim school, capacity can be an issue. DS1 lost a year- he was ready to move out of stage 4 in January 2020 and there wasn't space to move him up before March 2020. He didn't get back to the pool until September (better than many) then progress was frozen for a couple of months while children returned to standard and classes stabilised. I finally managed to move him up in the December before he lost another 3 months to lockdown. DS2 was similar, literally passed on 16/3/2020 but still took a while for capacity to open up in the next stage.

Wildly off topic now

1:1 lessons do pay for themselves with the improved rate of progress and contact time. Although we've stuck with group lessons for the convenient time slots, DS1 has dyspraxia and would get stuck on skills when younger (often took 12-18m per stage) and holiday sessions of 1:1 or intensive courses did help boost him.
As he's got older, the swimming content improves, he's got the foundation and naturally actually swims in leisure sessions and they haven't been needed.

@Bananarama21

Meatshake so they aren't actually following the Swim England framework then? Where is the Aquatic breathing if they are doing doggy paddle? We do tiger arms in ducklings with a woggle to touch on it but stage 1 is face in kicking across with a float face in for 5 metres on their front and on their back with a float 5 metres. Our stage 2 we introduce front crawl for 5 metres face in and they learn to swim without a float on their back none of them wear armbands.. Honest as a trained school and learn 2 swim teacher it doesn't sound good and if anything it encourage poor technique for Aquatic and buoyancy (e.g floating, correct body position for swimming) these are the fundamentals which are the starting point for learning to swim. It doesn't sound like they remotely need armbands whatsoever. I actually do more in my ducklings class in terms of buoyancy and breathing than what you have described.

Hmm interesting, I'm having a look at the swim England criteria, I'd say with confidence that she could do all of grade 3, most of grade 4 and 3/4 bits of grade 5. The bit they're missing is the strokes, which is what they're working on now.

Looking at the swim school's website, it's been designed by two ASA qualified teachers.

It's just the warm up couple of widths that's doggy paddle. I think the armbands thing for warm up is a psychological thing more than anything. They all get a bit excited when it's time to take them off and get keen to prove that they can do it. Makes sense because they are young kids in a 3.5m deep pool. A lot of the stuff they do seems to be thought through from a psychological perspective, calling arm bands "swim muscles" and the deep end "the big blue".

They do lots of buoyancy stuff, it's what I meant as part of their widths- they'll go across and log roll from front to back and back again, do push and glides with faces in the water, they play "swim swim freeze" a lot (they float on freeze). Positioning is important, quite often the teacher will get one kid to demonstrate something they're doing particularly well (today it was a girl swimming on her back and being particularly floaty/straight with her tummy up). I know my kid gets reminded frequently to "kick her socks off" and not let her legs drop.

The stroke practice is fairly basic because they're currently new to it. She's ok-ish at breaststroke, can't do arms and legs at the same time with back crawl. She's tried a couple of arms at front crawl but it's not a continuous movement with side breathing yet. I can see the foundations there though so I'm very happy with her progress.