To ask if there are any underwriters here? What’s it like?

[UnderwriterOption]

Can anyone give me the realistic gritty lowdown on underwriting as a career? Is it mad to enter at 40+? What’s the day to day actually like? I like analysis and detail. Would I find it satisfying? Any insights at all gratefully received.

It might be my hormones, the phase of the moon, turning 40, or goodness knows what, but I’m suddenly really itchy to completely change careers. I’ve been not entirely happy since before the pandemic and the lockdowns didn’t help. There’s too much soft nonsense in what I do, and it increasingly feels too peripatetic and

It really would be a complete change. I do have the entry requirements, though. I am surrounded by people in finance jobs generally, but for some reason underwriting (and a better pension and more stable working pattern) really appeals.

Feel free to NC. I have.

So AIBU to consider it?

I work for a large insurer. Spent a year in underwriting, but the past 12 years in claims as i didn't enjoy the selling aspect of underwriting.
I'd recommend commercial insurance over personal as it's more varied and interesting.
I can't offer much of what happens on a day to day basis, but the basic principle is you'd be assessing the risk of the product. There is a huge range of areas you can work in; marine, motor, property, construction, renewable energy, engineering etc..
My employer are big on technical development and offer apprenticeships to gain qualifications in the field (Cert/Diploma in CII for example).
Once you get in, there is a lot of scope for movement; claims, audit, compliance or even the brokering and loss adjusting side of insurance.
Our pension is excellent. They pay 11%, but that increases the more you contribute.

You're definitely not being unreasonable.

Thanks. That’s interesting. It was someone talking about commercial underwriting that first caught my attention actually.

Do you think it’s odd that accountancy sounds boring to me but insurance sounds interesting, or does that make sense?

I don't think it sounds odd at all...accountancy sounds boring to me too!

Good

I'm not an underwriter - I'm a marine broker - but I have considered switching over the years.
I'm also the child of a long term Lloyds underwriter.

If you have a good head for numbers and legal wordings, and handle stress well then absolutely it's a great career.
The rewards can be massive on the UW side, but they are also exposed to a level of stress and responsibility that can be difficult.

If you're looking at the London market, there's also the social side which is a very real aspect to the job. Relationships are an important currency and those are often developed outside of the working day.

Thank you.

It does sound like a good fit for me. Have you seen many mid career changers into that kind of role?

Bumping for any insurance folks on lunch break. If there are lunch breaks in insurance.

Underwriting used to be quite fun. Now, not so much. Almost all the big insurers have got rid of a lot of back office stuff so all but a few you end up doing all the boring stuff too - admin, accounts queries, documentation etc.

When I started, you could spend your day on the phone thrashing out a deal, then go to the pub with some brokers, put it on expenses and the good ones would send you something to price up in the afternoon. Then every now and again one of them would take you to the cricket/races/rugby on hospitality. But the drinking culture side of it has almost totally gone now (for good reasons tbh), we aren't allowed back in the office if we've had a drink at all.

I'd personally say underwriting was a better career 15 years ago. Now it's just the same as every other financial services job - myriad of spreadsheets, constant targets, no time to sit and think, doing 3 jobs for the price of 1 etc. The money is great and the work can be interesting at times, but please don't think of it as a land of fun and frolics!

Also noticed a definite change in last 5-10 years where insurers can and do pin the blame on a specific underwriter for a big loss.

They used to be seen as learning exercises, but increasingly I'm seeing them used as the start of a disciplinary, usually instigated by auditors who haven't written a piece of business in 20 years and can't understand why you might have missed a very small detail because you had 15 accounts queries and some operations wombat chasing up your oldest date for actioning post.

So there is quite a lot off stress in making sure you've had everything signed off appropriately. You say you have an eye for detail which is great, but it's very hard to sustain that level of detail across every single policy you write and renew (especially if you're behind target), but one tiny mistake and they soon forget all your good work. It's sad.

Hi OP

I'm a commercial property underwriter, before specialising I did property and casualty. I work at a large composite insurer in the regions.

I did development, so brokers would send in a presentation, I'd assess the risk features and work out how that affected our standard pricing and what terms and conditions to apply. For example say it's a metal workers I'd be asking about unattended processes and if there are any, working out how well controlled they are and how much additional risk that brings and if there is anything we need to change to make the risk acceptable.

A lot of underwriters are quite pragmatic and similar personality type in regional branches, generally quite into detail, introverts rather than creative types.

I like it because it's interesting and you get to learn a bit about everything. I know about combustible cladding, sprinkler systems, trade processes, how to look at a building and work out how much a flood claim could cost, health and safety, civil law, emerging risks, what the government are concerned the next big terrorism event is going to look like, loads of stuff.

There isnt as much analysis of data as you would think, unless you have a data / head office underwriting/ actuarial role or volunteer for extra projects.

Things I like
I put in extra hours because I enjoy it and want to progress but if I wanted to I could do 9-5
Pay is ok, I get paid mid 40s for 4 days and if I moved from a composite to an american insurer I could get 50pc or much more for a new start up
Large composites are generally low stress and family friendly with a mix if wfh and office
There are a lot of different roles you can go into from starting in underwriting- ops, technical, sales, account management, marketing etc. Underwriting is the central function that gives you a good grounding to do other things
There are branches of the same company everywhere and there are lots of insurers offices in most major cities making it easy to move around
Because of that there is an insurance 'market' which is quite social and everyone knows each other
I find benefits like pension and holidays and stuff fairly good
It can be stressful trying to meet deadlines however compared to other jobs on similar salaries I think it's relatively low stress

Things that arent great
Its becoming more process driven. A lot of underwriting is through experience and feel for a risk and a lot of that flex for people is being taken away. For example you know that because of certain risk features a large claim is virtually impossible but systems wont let you override them with your knowledge of the risk because everything is becoming more data driven. Which is generally a good thing but there are always exceptions and it can feel a bit 'computer says no'. Systems now give you a price and suggest terms wo you dont get that experience of building up a policy manually and knowing the background to how it all works

I find progression quite slow. I'm in a technical account role now rather than individual case underwriting, I have 20 years experience and I'm a junior in the team. A lot of underwriting is experience and unfortunately unless you work for an american company who look more at catastrophe risks or london, if you work in a composite, the majority of what you see will be similar medium sized risks like warehouses that you dont learn a lot from

A lot of underwriters struggle with the soft stuff and the selling part. Partly because of personality and partly because there is a middle man in brokers who dont always have the technical understanding and it makes finding out buying motivation difficult. And partly because most products are very similar but you arent meant to sell just on price
I also struggle with people perceptions a bit, people think we are money grabbing blans do everything we can to turn down a claim but the reality is, there is only a few % profit in underwriting. On a good year. And claims have to ask robust questions to stop fraud which costs billions per year.

The pace of change at large composites is painfully slow, it's so painful when a lot of your day is spent trying to navigate painful legacy systems, outdated IT, and things that you know could be done a million times better if it didnt have to go through a million teqms and committees to get signed off in 3 years

If you're starting from scratch then composites have decent training programmes though where they take you through various levels of technical learning

Interesting to hear another view.

I suppose I’m hoping for something more solid and quantifiable than what I currently do. I lost three hours yesterday literally thumb twiddling while someone deescalated the ego clash that was holding up the material I needed. We also lose a lot of time these days on insubstantial candy floss activities that one of my colleagues secretly calls virtue signalling projects, but they don’t add value. That kind of thing.

I suppose I’m looking for a better fit, without throwing myself into a new version of inefficiency and frustration. It’s hard to be sure what will eventually grate.

All these insights help. Thank you.

Two more contributions! Thanks so much. I will grab a coffee and read through in detail. This is all so helpful.

I agree it's a very different job to how it used to be. I used to trade a risk in the pub and even when I was relatively junior I'd get someone else to debit and process and file the paperwork. Now there are supposedly great systems to do most of the admin but the reality is that underwriters end up doing a lot of it themselves and there is a lot more pressure on headcount. Our team was slashed by about two thirds in the time I was in it, with bigger targets

My company is also fairly ethical eg we do a lot of charity stuff, they match donations or give more, days off for volunteering, green targets etc

There is also the possibility of specialising in areas that interest you - financial lines for example. Or going into surveying etc. Sorry keep thinking of new things!

@Underfrighter

My company is also fairly ethical eg we do a lot of charity stuff, they match donations or give more, days off for volunteering, green targets etc

That I could get behind. It’s long meetings about where exactly to deploy rainbow emblems - and almost no practical volunteering or fundraising effort - those are the kind of empty CSR initiatives that are driving my me slowly insane.

Which is emblematic, really, of how the whole sector operates (creative/strategic). It’s constantly style over substance.

@Technosaurus

Also noticed a definite change in last 5-10 years where insurers can and do pin the blame on a specific underwriter for a big loss.

They used to be seen as learning exercises, but increasingly I'm seeing them used as the start of a disciplinary, usually instigated by auditors who haven't written a piece of business in 20 years and can't understand why you might have missed a very small detail because you had 15 accounts queries and some operations wombat chasing up your oldest date for actioning post.

So there is quite a lot off stress in making sure you've had everything signed off appropriately. You say you have an eye for detail which is great, but it's very hard to sustain that level of detail across every single policy you write and renew (especially if you're behind target), but one tiny mistake and they soon forget all your good work. It's sad.

That does sound brutal.

@Underfrighter

Hi OP

I'm a commercial property underwriter, before specialising I did property and casualty. I work at a large composite insurer in the regions.

I did development, so brokers would send in a presentation, I'd assess the risk features and work out how that affected our standard pricing and what terms and conditions to apply. For example say it's a metal workers I'd be asking about unattended processes and if there are any, working out how well controlled they are and how much additional risk that brings and if there is anything we need to change to make the risk acceptable.

A lot of underwriters are quite pragmatic and similar personality type in regional branches, generally quite into detail, introverts rather than creative types.

I like it because it's interesting and you get to learn a bit about everything. I know about combustible cladding, sprinkler systems, trade processes, how to look at a building and work out how much a flood claim could cost, health and safety, civil law, emerging risks, what the government are concerned the next big terrorism event is going to look like, loads of stuff.

There isnt as much analysis of data as you would think, unless you have a data / head office underwriting/ actuarial role or volunteer for extra projects.

Things I like
I put in extra hours because I enjoy it and want to progress but if I wanted to I could do 9-5
Pay is ok, I get paid mid 40s for 4 days and if I moved from a composite to an american insurer I could get 50pc or much more for a new start up
Large composites are generally low stress and family friendly with a mix if wfh and office
There are a lot of different roles you can go into from starting in underwriting- ops, technical, sales, account management, marketing etc. Underwriting is the central function that gives you a good grounding to do other things
There are branches of the same company everywhere and there are lots of insurers offices in most major cities making it easy to move around
Because of that there is an insurance 'market' which is quite social and everyone knows each other
I find benefits like pension and holidays and stuff fairly good
It can be stressful trying to meet deadlines however compared to other jobs on similar salaries I think it's relatively low stress

Things that arent great
Its becoming more process driven. A lot of underwriting is through experience and feel for a risk and a lot of that flex for people is being taken away. For example you know that because of certain risk features a large claim is virtually impossible but systems wont let you override them with your knowledge of the risk because everything is becoming more data driven. Which is generally a good thing but there are always exceptions and it can feel a bit 'computer says no'. Systems now give you a price and suggest terms wo you dont get that experience of building up a policy manually and knowing the background to how it all works

I find progression quite slow. I'm in a technical account role now rather than individual case underwriting, I have 20 years experience and I'm a junior in the team. A lot of underwriting is experience and unfortunately unless you work for an american company who look more at catastrophe risks or london, if you work in a composite, the majority of what you see will be similar medium sized risks like warehouses that you dont learn a lot from

A lot of underwriters struggle with the soft stuff and the selling part. Partly because of personality and partly because there is a middle man in brokers who dont always have the technical understanding and it makes finding out buying motivation difficult. And partly because most products are very similar but you arent meant to sell just on price
I also struggle with people perceptions a bit, people think we are money grabbing blans do everything we can to turn down a claim but the reality is, there is only a few % profit in underwriting. On a good year. And claims have to ask robust questions to stop fraud which costs billions per year.

The pace of change at large composites is painfully slow, it's so painful when a lot of your day is spent trying to navigate painful legacy systems, outdated IT, and things that you know could be done a million times better if it didnt have to go through a million teqms and committees to get signed off in 3 years

If you're starting from scratch then composites have decent training programmes though where they take you through various levels of technical learning

That is so detailed and helpful. Some of the things I hoped for there.

Im about to get in the car but I’ll be back later.

You’ve all been really generous to explain so much.