1 teacher to 45 kids

[Noneofmybeeswax]

So last week my DD (9) came home and proudly announced "I was sat in the corridor for Maths today!"
After a little bit of digging it turns out the school changed to a new text book in September which can only be taught in individual year groups but they are in mixed year classes. They are 1 1/2 form entry school and are mixed Y1/Y2, Y3/Y4 and Y5/Y6.
This has meant the Y4 is being taught in a group of 45 in one class with only 31 chairs. After the first 30 minutes, 10 go off with a TA but of the remaining kids 4 are shoved onto a desk outside the door in the corridor and checked on once or twice during the independent exercise.
So tell me YABU (this is a normal group size in schools these days and children don't always have access to a desk in the classroom) or YANBU (every child should have a desk and 45 is too many for 1 teacher)?

I really don’t see how this could possibly work. Can you voice your concerns to the teacher?

Sounds like cost cutting so they need less teachers in the morning but doesn’t sound suitable for long term in any way.

Ds primary school was similar set up. They had two y3/4 classes, one year 4/5 class and two year 5/6 classes. For morning lessons the year 4 children from the two 3/4 classes and the year 5 children from the 5/6 where taught separately. (I think the 4/5 class split to but ds was never in that one so I don’t know)

It sounds like they are using Maths No Problem. This is a scheme which is not obvious until you start using it how prescriptive it is. It is very difficult to use with mixed year groups.

I would ask the school how they intend to work around this issue over the medium and long term and how they are meeting your daughter's educational needs in relation to Maths. I would ask whether they think it is sustainable and whether they are going to consider a Maths scheme which is better suited to mixed year groups.

If they need an example of a suitable one, ask them if they have looked into White Rose Maths instead - a very large number of schools in our area have moved to it from MNP!

@Charmatt

It sounds like they are using Maths No Problem. This is a scheme which is not obvious until you start using it how prescriptive it is. It is very difficult to use with mixed year groups.

I would ask the school how they intend to work around this issue over the medium and long term and how they are meeting your daughter's educational needs in relation to Maths. I would ask whether they think it is sustainable and whether they are going to consider a Maths scheme which is better suited to mixed year groups.

If they need an example of a suitable one, ask them if they have looked into White Rose Maths instead - a very large number of schools in our area have moved to it from MNP!

It's actually Power Maths and has been mandated by the Academy Trust; our school is the only mixed year school in the trust. I have spoken to the teacher and the response was that she and the Head are looking into larger spaces in the medium to longer term.

The Trust needs to ensure that they are accommodating the needs of all schools in the Trust. I would write to the chair of the Trust Board and ask him how he is ensuring the needs of the pupils in all of the schools are being met, when clearly, the needs of the children in the school with mixed year groups are being sacrificed when there are other schemes which could be a good fit for all schools in the Trust instead.

It’s not just about space though is it (and I’m impressed they can magic up space in a school especially as I assume it’s a school wide issue) it’s about the quality of teaching and with the best will in the world a teacher and 1 TA simply can’t give a high standard of education to every child with so many in the class.

That’s awful 😢 if you get nowhere with the school/Trust I’d make an official complaint to Dept of Education and approach Ofsted. I thought the legal limit for class size in England is 32.

@Thewindwhispers

That’s awful 😢 if you get nowhere with the school/Trust I’d make an official complaint to Dept of Education and approach Ofsted. I thought the legal limit for class size in England is 32.

All of your post is wrong

For infant classes there is a limit of 30. No limit for older classes.
It is not a qualifying complaint for Ofsted. They would refer you back to the schools to go through their complaint process.
The Dfe (or ESFA) require all complaints to have been through the schools full complaint system. They would just refer you back to the school.

Slightly off thread as Maths No Problem isn't the scheme in use here, but I teach Maths No Problem. It was many significant weaknesses.

In 1970 (state primary school in England, very deprived area ) I taught a huge class of over 40 eleven yr olds all in one room with space for everybody to have their own desk, chair and books. My colleague teaching the parallel class across the corridor had a similar number of pupils. Hard work but manageable.

The scenario described by OP sounds appalling, absolutely dreadful.

Thanks all!
Unfortunately this isn't a deprived area in the 70s, it's a relatively affluent small town in a leafy 'Shire.
I think I need to take this to the Head and, as I expect to be told it's just to be accepted, consider going through the school complaints procedure for the sakes of all the children and not just my own.

I think more of this is coming. I heard a radio 4 interview with a head talking abouthow rising fuel costs will mean a need to slim staff down further.

@DolphinFC

Slightly off thread as Maths No Problem isn't the scheme in use here, but I teach Maths No Problem. It was many significant weaknesses.

I’m curious as I thought this looked good from cursory research. What were the weaknesses?

@Noneofmybeeswax

Thanks all! Unfortunately this isn't a deprived area in the 70s, it's a relatively affluent small town in a leafy 'Shire. I think I need to take this to the Head and, as I expect to be told it's just to be accepted, consider going through the school complaints procedure for the sakes of all the children and not just my own.

If it goes to the governors and the reasoning is due to extreme budget constraints then I’m not sure what they would realistically do. This might be the best solution in the circumstances whilst clearly being far from ideal.

Having a small group working just outside the classroom has been the norm at both my DCs' primary school. There's literally a table and chairs outside most classrooms. Classes of 45 no, but if that means 30 sat at desks and 15 on the floor for input that doesn't seem the end of the world to me.

Obviously no one would argue it's ideal, but I think the outside spots are quite popular at our school.

My highschool is running classes of 60 regularly when we don't have the staff. If staff are absent it's rare they are covered by teachers qualified in the subject.

Half our maths lessons and plenty of science is taught, full time, by P.E. and Geography staff because we can't afford to replace those who leave.

It varies by school but all schools are utterly broke and teachers have left the profession in huge numbers. Ordinary teacher pay has been cut by 21% since the Tories came to power.

Sounds quite normal at the moment to be honest.
Budgets are horrendous in schools.

Yup this is before you even think about thise leaving the profession :(

Seems ridiculous. Anyway maths should be taught by ability, my dd1 was working 3 years ahead in maths and 2 in English, she had different text books to most of her class, a couple of others were at her level. Maths in particular is not one size fits all

Its not how maths is taught in england at the moment (rightly or wrongly.) There is a mastert curriculum so children dont do the "next yesrs" studies at all but are supposed to deepend understanding or breadth of same topic everyone else is working on.

Its a problem in grammar areas as they dont have any knowledge of yr 6 curriculum they need for the test.

Not acceptable. Even without the space issue, your child is not getting enough attention in a group of 45. I'm a primary teacher and parent and I would be putting in a complaint. If they say they can't go against the trust then I would complain directly to the trust. This is one of the many problems associated with MATs - total lack of flexibility for individual school needs.

I was in a class of 48 at primary school in the 50s, no TAs either. I thought those days had gone, back to the 70s with inflation, threats of nuclear war and rising interest rates but back to the 50s is a new one.

But as I understand it there is no audit/compliance system for MATs so they can implement policies that adversely affect the pupils with no checks in place. Ofsted audit schools but the Trusts are without scrutiny.

That's not the case. The decisions that are in place are still accountable through a school's Ofsted and it is not good enough to say it's the MAT's decision when inspected.

Contrary to popular belief, good MATs (of which there are many) plan and make decisions to the benefit of all schools give autonomy to schools to use their judgement where a collective decision is not appropriate. A good MAT uses the collective knowledge of the school to share good practice and help all schools in the Trust.

The reason we hear about 'Bad' MATs is because the ones who work well aren't news worthy.