To not attend online seminars?

[coolstef]

I'm in my 4th and final year at university and am due to finish in 2 months. It has been online for the past two years due to COVID. I have not set foot on campus since 2020.

I consistently sit at a 2.1 without much effort at all, I am fine with that and a 2.1 is what I am hoping to graduate with (on track for this). However, I haven't attended any online seminars this full academic year. It says the seminars are mandatory.

The reason I haven't attended is due to my experiences of online seminars last year I find them to be a complete waste of time. I gain nothing from them, learn nothing in them and would much rather focus my time elsewhere like on the actual assessments and my dissertation.

I have never been pulled up for my lack of attendance and always submit my work on time and as I said consistently get 2.1s.

However, my friend doing the same course has started to ask me am I not worried about getting kicked out due to my lack of attendance? I'd never really thought about it as no one has questioned me about it. I had a look at the uni policy and they said that they would give three chances before being kicked out and try and support you to engage more. Additionally, I am engaged with the course, this is shown in my work and working to the deadlines.

So am I being unreasonable to assume that since no one has been in touch they are not going to just kick me out of uni for not attending the seminars?

My personal tutor is very happy with me and says I'm the most hardworking student she's had this year.

@coolstef

It was *@Cheeseandlobster* who was rude

Who is rude? Lucky Lavender who you aimed the rudeness post at or me? If it is me then I stand by what I say. It is arrogant to not bother to attend mandatory seminars for 2 years. Imagine if everyone on the course had this attitude. There would be no learning from peers via questions and answers etc. I bet you have missed some very important things, despite what you think

Thank you for your input @Cheeseandlobster

The other problem with your attitude is that seminars really run better the more students engage with them. To a lecturer it is incredibly frustrating when all students have their cameras off, don't respond/ engage, or don't show up at all. I can understand what you're saying re you're not getting anything from the seminars, but chances are you could have got something from them if you (and others) did engage properly. You could have influenced where the discussion was going, you could have shown an interest in other students' views. Or you could have given feedback to the seminar leader re why the seminars weren't useful to you. It's when students are passive like that that we end up dumbing things down and don't feel we can set more challenging discussion questions etc. It has been soul destroying tbh

@Sunda

The other problem with your attitude is that seminars really run better the more students engage with them. To a lecturer it is incredibly frustrating when all students have their cameras off, don't respond/ engage, or don't show up at all. I can understand what you're saying re you're not getting anything from the seminars, but chances are you could have got something from them if you (and others) did engage properly. You could have influenced where the discussion was going, you could have shown an interest in other students' views. Or you could have given feedback to the seminar leader re why the seminars weren't useful to you. It's when students are passive like that that we end up dumbing things down and don't feel we can set more challenging discussion questions etc. It has been soul destroying tbh

That's fair enough.

I did a degree that ended in a professional registration so its probably different but all seminars were mandatory, interesting and I gained alot from them. This was especially true when students engaged asking questions, extending the learning and taking part in debates. I do wonder what type of course your doing where this is not the case?
Anyway, as I said it was different on mine and attendance was definitely flagged at the earliest opportunity and if you failed to attend after warnings and intervention you failed. It would be impossible for you not to know this until the end because you'd have gone through a series of meetings and written warnings. so hopefully that's reassuring op. Who knows though.

Compulsory attendance requirements may not be just a university matter - I think they're sometimes required for the degree to be recognised by a professional body. Of course, that still doesn't tell you whether anyone is suddenly going to notice your attendance record and raise it as an issue.

It's more likely that they just need to ensure that you are engaging with the course. I think student finance are not impressed if they've been paying out all year for someone who hasn't engaged at all, so with more things online, there may be a need for some check on whether people are actually studying or not.

[quote coolstef]@luckylavender what attitude? Why does it effect you so much? I'm a stranger on mumsnet. [/quote]
Affect / effect

What some people do is log on, record then listen at double speed.

Are you aware of the Dunning Kruger effect?

At the very beginning of learning something, you recognize that you know nothing. Then you gain a little bit of knowledge. What then happens is that because you now know so much more than when you knew zero, you feel full of knowledge. But actually, people who are more experienced are aware of gaps in your knowledge that you are not aware of.

That's how you get someone who has done a weekend residential photography course mansplaining to a 20yr photojournalist why you need different lenses.

So curious what course this is where it is possible to know everything in 4 years. If you're doing a seminar on quadratic equations or something, you might be like 'oh I know that' but will you be familiar with the aside about Pythagoras the tutor mentions, and the story of the time he used it when the steel ordered had 10% less tensile strength than the spec requested? The handout just said 'quadratic equations' and you know that, so didn't attend that seminar...

What some people do is log on, record then listen at double speed.

Most universities won't allow students record. The lecturer will record & share with the students.

For seminars like that, the learning isn't in listening anyway; it's the active participation & knowledge exchange.

OP, you being there & participating, along with your fellow students, is what should make the seminars 'worthwhile' I teach at a university; this attitude is so frustrating.

@RandomBasic

What some people do is log on, record then listen at double speed.

Are you aware of the Dunning Kruger effect?

At the very beginning of learning something, you recognize that you know nothing. Then you gain a little bit of knowledge. What then happens is that because you now know so much more than when you knew zero, you feel full of knowledge. But actually, people who are more experienced are aware of gaps in your knowledge that you are not aware of.

That's how you get someone who has done a weekend residential photography course mansplaining to a 20yr photojournalist why you need different lenses.

So curious what course this is where it is possible to know everything in 4 years. If you're doing a seminar on quadratic equations or something, you might be like 'oh I know that' but will you be familiar with the aside about Pythagoras the tutor mentions, and the story of the time he used it when the steel ordered had 10% less tensile strength than the spec requested? The handout just said 'quadratic equations' and you know that, so didn't attend that seminar...

I'm doing a politics course and no, the seminars are nothing like that. You get put into breakout rooms where everyone sits in awkward silence on their phone. You then get taken back into the main room where the lecturer asks what you've discussed. Since you've not discussed anything, nobody speaks and so the seminar ends. This was not a problem in face to face seminars which I attended, engaged and most of the time, enjoyed. But this is the reality of online seminars. I can say with 100 percent certainty that I am not at risk of missing out on a single thing based on my previous experiences.

@RandomBasic makes an excellent point.

University to me is not simply about passing the course and doing the bare minimum to do so. There is s much knowledge to be gained by interacting with experts on the subject, which course tutors and lecturers will hopefully be. I still think about conversations I had with mine years later. Questions would be asked in lectures and tutors would be happy to have conversations after or over email to expand on them. The reading materials can only give you so much but i suppose it depends on what degree your doing.

My DS is studying politics and finds the seminars the most useful part of the course. I think the main issue here is that you need to flag it up with the lecturer that they way they are running the online seminars isn't working.

When I was at university I could check online under my Student Record what my attendance was for each module. If overall attendance fell below 85% you were called in by your personal tutor for a chat. One of the things that it can impact is if you are borderline between degree classifications (eg you are on 69.4% overall) you are more likely to be awarded the higher degree if your attendance is good.

Cross posted with your update. Id have complained in your shoes op. Your paying for this. People on my degree did complain and took action if they were unsatisfied with teaching. That sounds so frustrating for you.

[quote Rewritethestars1]@RandomBasic makes an excellent point.

University to me is not simply about passing the course and doing the bare minimum to do so. There is s much knowledge to be gained by interacting with experts on the subject, which course tutors and lecturers will hopefully be. I still think about conversations I had with mine years later. Questions would be asked in lectures and tutors would be happy to have conversations after or over email to expand on them. The reading materials can only give you so much but i suppose it depends on what degree your doing.[/quote]
To be absolutely honest I have no interest in my degree, it's merely a mean to an end to get me to my postgrad which is a professional course which will take me into my chosen line of work.

You get put into breakout rooms where everyone sits in awkward silence on their phone. You then get taken back into the main room where the lecturer asks what you've discussed. Since you've not discussed anything, nobody speaks and so the seminar ends.

You've missed a trick there OP. Leading the discussions and including those not confident enough to contribute or who just couldn't be arsed would have been great evidence at interviews for whatever career you wish to follow.

Posted too soon. The OP might be the same? So can't assume she wants/needs the additional knowledge.

@Sunda

The other problem with your attitude is that seminars really run better the more students engage with them. To a lecturer it is incredibly frustrating when all students have their cameras off, don't respond/ engage, or don't show up at all. I can understand what you're saying re you're not getting anything from the seminars, but chances are you could have got something from them if you (and others) did engage properly. You could have influenced where the discussion was going, you could have shown an interest in other students' views. Or you could have given feedback to the seminar leader re why the seminars weren't useful to you. It's when students are passive like that that we end up dumbing things down and don't feel we can set more challenging discussion questions etc. It has been soul destroying tbh

This this and more this.

This thread has been so depressing. We've been back on campus fully for a while now, but I know see in black and white why it was so hard and horrible to make an online seminar into a good experience, despite all my best efforts. As for people's mums condoning them logging in and tuning out.... very grim reading.

@nycliving fair enough. Like I said it depends what degree you are doing and why. That was just my experience but I did a professional qualification at undergrad and I have worked in the role in some form or another since. Good luck with your studies.

I work in HE and this sounds a bit surprising.

Firstly, we returned to F2F as soon aa we were allowed (Sept 21). The SoS made a show of ringing HEIs to check they were back properly. Recording lectures, sure, but 100% online seminars? Either you don't realise there are additional sessions to attend or your institution is skating on thin ice.

Also v odd that you have M-level students taking your seminars. Are you sure? I have worked at universities in hums/ soc sci for 17 years and have never seen anyone below L8 take a seminar unsupported.

Also odd the staffing changes every week, they don't do welfare checks, they don't log e-attendance.....

If this is true it sounds very badly run and as a senior manager I'd be having a disciplinary conversation with the programme lead if this happened on my patch.

If it's true.....

But this is the reality of online seminars.

It's not the reality of the online seminars I run.

I use breakout rooms too. Students have clear tasks, I get feedback through discussion in the main room, plus online engagement tools like Vevox & via Chat. It works well

If it hasn't worked well for you, you could have tried discussing the topics in the breakout rooms, and / or letting the lecturer know.

@RockingMyFiftiesNot

You get put into breakout rooms where everyone sits in awkward silence on their phone. You then get taken back into the main room where the lecturer asks what you've discussed. Since you've not discussed anything, nobody speaks and so the seminar ends.

You've missed a trick there OP. Leading the discussions and including those not confident enough to contribute or who just couldn't be arsed would have been great evidence at interviews for whatever career you wish to follow.

I agree with this. University isn’t a passive experience - by simply receiving information, you’re only getting half of what you might out of it. Learning to debate, to persuade, to lead and to develop your own voice are more valuable than the knowledge you gain by passively receiving. I’d argue that learning these skills is at least as important a part of the university experience as the knowledge one receives.

Based on my children's experience of uni these last three years, I'd advise you to tread very carefully.
Assume nothing.
At the very least, check with your tutor .
I've heard some sorry tales from my children.

I’d argue that learning these skills is at least as important a part of the university experience as the knowledge one receives.

I agree 100%. I've interviewed so many candidates with 2:1s and 1sts rejected because they had little else to offer

I'm a University lecturer. It will depend on what course you are doing. If students don't attend lectures/seminars for what I teach, then yes they can't pass the course. This is due to a skills based element to what I teach though, they have to log a certain amount of teaching hours. I do though know all the students who sign in and don't get involved. It makes me sad and makes the seminar/lecture less of an experience for the group. If the students are doing small group work there's at least 2 in each group that aren't there so that causes issues too, the people who want to join in, in the seminar are left with people who can't be bothered in thier group. Generally I won't give students who haven't been involved in seminars and kectures a reference as there's not much I can say about them.. students are adult learners though.. if they want to spend 9k then they need to know what they need to do to pass the course.. it will tell you somewhere in your documents what your attendence requirements are or should do, I'm sure you probably know with only 2m to go whether you need to attend possibly. I let students know if they are not attending or making hours needed halfway through Yr 1

You’re the most hard working student but only on course for a 2:1?