AIBU - otherwise what is the point of economic sanctions ?

[keysonthetable]

A close friend is married to a lovely Russian woman and their home has always been in the UK since they married. Her entire family still live in Russia

He's asked me for my opinion as to whether he should agree to his BIL's request to have his wages paid in to the friend's paypal account and from there to pay the funds over to his BIL when/however he can.

He and I are both torn as to whether this is not on as it helps a Russian national avoid the financial sanctions put in place to try and end the war being foisted upon Ukraine by Russia. Yes, it's his wife's brother but if a large proportion of Russians find similar ways around the sanctions intended to make their life more difficult because of what their leader is doing in their name, it weakens the effect of sanctions and props up the corrupt blood thirsty leader's regime.

What do people think ?

Where is BIL working that his wages can be paid into a Paypal account?

As well as the moral reason not to do it, would it be money laundering and therefore illegal?

Also, sanctions could go on for years and your friend would need to keep track of how much of BIL's money he has, if he wants to avoid family ructions in future.

Why does he want your opinion in particular?

Unless the BIL is an oligarch then he is not directly sanctioned. Is the issue that he is afraid the banks will shut and he won’t get paid?
Starving ordinary Russians will make bugger all difference to Putin he’s already had thousands of anti war protesters locked up.

The questions I would ask are is the salary coming from a sanctioned entity? Why does your BIL want this done?

your friend’s BIL

PayPal stopped operating in Russia, so do not send money by this method.

My first question is why would the BIL want to send money to his BIL, rather than his own sister?

I would have 0 moral objections to helping out a family member in these circumstances.

This notion that ordinary Russians should be punished in order that they rise up against a dictator like putin is getting out of hand.

All the keyboard warriors blaming the ordinary Russians when none of them have ever lived in fear have no idea what they’re talking about.

Putin the one the responsible,not the man on the street just going about his day and supporting his family.

But hey let’s allow some more women and children to starve so they rise up against putin eh?

At this rate we’ll raising money for the Russians to help them out of the position the virtue signallers put them in.

PayPal aren't operating in Russia so how does that work? Is this even true or just something you made up?

I would presume it’s because the BIL wants to be able to get out of Russia at some point and wants a pot of money waiting for him when he manages it?

PayPal are no longer operating in Russia, so that part doesn't make sense.

Normal people in Russia are not subject to sanctions, so that makes no sense either.

Seems you've got (not even) half a story here OP.

A) PayPal aren’t operating in Russia.
B) consider money laundering regulations.

IMO it’s not worth it.

@AlternativePerspective

I would have 0 moral objections to helping out a family member in these circumstances.

This notion that ordinary Russians should be punished in order that they rise up against a dictator like putin is getting out of hand.

All the keyboard warriors blaming the ordinary Russians when none of them have ever lived in fear have no idea what they’re talking about.

Putin the one the responsible,not the man on the street just going about his day and supporting his family.

But hey let’s allow some more women and children to starve so they rise up against putin eh?

At this rate we’ll raising money for the Russians to help them out of the position the virtue signallers put them in.

There is so much ignorance in this post it is hard to know where to start. If you want to actually understand about why this is happening then I have made a thread that goes through it in detail.

Regardless, PayPal is ceasing to operate in Russia.

@TacoCats

PayPal aren't operating in Russia so how does that work? Is this even true or just something you made up?

It's made up, innit?

To me, the whole point of sanctions IS to affect 'ordinary' russians.

We are cutting their access to Mastercad/Visa, we are stopping imports/exports of goods that they need in their day to day life, we are imposing huge sanctions on their banks and crashing their currency. We are doing this to affect them so that they feel the pain and with any luck start to question wtf their government is doing and eventually put an end to it.

Jizzle
How are ordinary Russians going to get rid of Putin? They didn’t shift Stalin and he killed millions of them.

@Jizzle

To me, the whole point of sanctions IS to affect 'ordinary' russians.

We are cutting their access to Mastercad/Visa, we are stopping imports/exports of goods that they need in their day to day life, we are imposing huge sanctions on their banks and crashing their currency. We are doing this to affect them so that they feel the pain and with any luck start to question wtf their government is doing and eventually put an end to it.

They know what is going on. They have no power to change what their despot leader is doing. Plunging more and more people into destitution will not stop Putin, it is idiotic to think otherwise.

The point of sanctions is to starve the Russian war machine of cash which is why they were so quick to block transactions with the central bank / sovereign wealth fund. Even if Putin has a war chest it’s increasingly difficult for him to utilise it. Wars consume a lot of resources - more than Russia can produce in time - so he needs to be able to buy stuff. He also needs to keep his acolytes in places like Belarus onside and I suspect that is not cheap.
I am not convinced hitting ordinary people will change much as they can’t shift Putin. It’s people further up the food chain that are more likely to be key.

Ordinary people starving has never been a concern for Putin or the oligarchs. Russia is such a reliable gas supplier to the west that they let their cities go cold if there’s a shortfall rather than lose money selling to us.

We need to reach out to each other - ordinary people recognising our common humanity at this time - and be clear on who our enemies actually are.

@TacoCats

PayPal aren't operating in Russia so how does that work? Is this even true or just something you made up?

No, totally genuine question.

I'm assuming it's precisely because paypal are no longer operating in Russia that the BIL wants the salary paid into a paypal account in the UK. You can transfer money in and out of a bank account to/from a paypal account and if that paypal account is registered to a UK resident/British person, presumably this circumvents some financial sanctions or other, otherwise why risk it. Maybe he wants it converting to sterling via the paypal route. More questions need to be asked. I was a little extreme in my thinking ahead and asked my friend what if the BIL ends up being conscripted and friend ends up receiving the wages of a Russian soldier ?

I very much doubt friend's BIL is an oligarch as the family are not at all well off. Friend's wife has explained to me in the past that supply of goods in their region of Russia can be hit and miss (rural). BIL is sort of a handyman employed at local school/health facility. We're not going to be talking large amounts here.

Friend specifically asked me because I helped him get set up on e-bay/paypal when he was selling some stuff from his hobby.

Is it money laundering ?

Look folks - this is a totally genuine situation/question so knob off with your insinuations that I've woken up this morning and decided to waste my fellow MN'ers time !

@LizDoingTheCanCan

PayPal are no longer operating in Russia, so that part doesn't make sense.

Normal people in Russia are not subject to sanctions, so that makes no sense either.

Seems you've got (not even) half a story here OP.

Normal people are totally subject to sanctions you numpty.

The West aren't just applying some sort of mythical sanctions that only affect the oligarchs/Putin and his puppet government.

Ordinary Russians suddenly found themselves unable to pay by card on their subway and had to queue up to buy tickets.

So he’s out in Russia working and wants his wages paid into a U.K. PayPal account? In case Russia crashes more?

I’d be wary of it getting frozen somehow. Also presumably putting in money from Russia right now is going to have a dire interest rate so he could loose money.

I don’t envy his situation. Putin and his cronies don’t care about everyday Russians. They only care about themselves.

Keys

Liz is right. Ordinary Russians are NOT subject to sanctions. They are affected by sanctions but not subject to them.

Sanctions are either:-
Targeted against a whole state eg North Korea or Syria
Targeted against specified organisations or sectors eg Banks or named corporations
Targeted against specified persons eg Putin himself, various named Oligarchs, the family of Assad in Syria etc.
Targeted against specified goods eg dual use civilian and military etc

There are currently no sanctions on ordinary Russian people. The issue you face is how is the money being transferred and where is it coming from. So if he is employed by the Russian state his salary may be caught by sanctions. If the money is being transferred via a sanctioned bank, that would be a problem etc.

Ordinary Russians suddenly found themselves unable to pay by card on their subway and had to queue up to buy tickets.

Oh how awful for them. Meanwhile, in Ukraine…

I wouldn't do this without getting legal advice and I suspect logistically it's not possible.