Is manipulation normal for 6/7/8 year olds?

[DrivingMeMadWithManipulation]

DD is 7, Year 3 but been doing this for around a year. Just want to know if it’s normal?

If she can’t get her own way she’ll say something like “If you make me do that I’ll never eat a single thing again then I’ll die and you’ll be sad” or “I’m not doing, if you make me I’ll tell my teacher you hit me” or my absolutely favourite “I’m telling school I want to live with daddy, then I won’t have to do it”

It’s usually around doing things around the house like tidying up her toys, or homework.

I’m very none committal, and tell her to go ahead, she usually behaves after that. But it’s driving me mad, it’s all the time at the moment, over everything from getting dressed or going to bed to tidying up.

She’s been known to say things like “I am taking your phone and you’re not getting back until you stop asking me”. I of course don’t let her take my phone, and I shut that down with removal of screentime.

She’s very demanding in general at the moment, and I just want to know if it’s the age or it’s something I need to discuss with someone like school?

She can also be very sarcastic if I ask her to do something like put the light on or close the door, or she’ll say “And what are you going to do for me?”

She’s an only child and due to covid restrictions I don’t get to speak to her friends parents so can’t compare notes. It’s also only me and her at home.

If it helps she is suspected dyslexic and dyspraxic/DCD (awaiting formal diagnosis) and absolutely hates school, it’s a school in general issue rather than the school as I changed her school for another reason and she’s still the same. She does do activities outside of school she loves, and I have threatened to stop these if she carries on which usually means she behaves.

She’s come back from her dads tonight and within 5 minutes was manipulating me, refusing to eat and telling me if I don’t let her have pudding she’ll tell her teacher tomorrow that I made her eat food (ExH doesn’t feed her so don’t suggest she’s not hungry, she is!)

So AIBU to ask if it’s the age and normal?

No none of my 3 kids were ever manipulative in that way. Hope you can get it sorted

Do mention it at school op. I know at our school we have a little intervention to
nip specific issues in the bud - worrying about transition, body image, self esteem, lying. If not, something like art therapy would get her talking about why she does it.

Ultimately, it may be about exerting control over some things in her life because she feels at sea after visiting her dad but I'm just guessing. If you agree, you could try giving her a bit of extra control over her choices. I know it sounds counter-productive, but giving her little wins about things that don't really matter that much might help her to feel like she's in the driving seat of her life a bit more.

@twominutesmore

Do mention it at school op. I know at our school we have a little intervention to nip specific issues in the bud - worrying about transition, body image, self esteem, lying. If not, something like art therapy would get her talking about why she does it.

Ultimately, it may be about exerting control over some things in her life because she feels at sea after visiting her dad but I'm just guessing. If you agree, you could try giving her a bit of extra control over her choices. I know it sounds counter-productive, but giving her little wins about things that don't really matter that much might help her to feel like she's in the driving seat of her life a bit more.

@twominutesmore It's definitely worse when she's been to her dads and when she's tired or upset, I do think its about control so letting her have a few wins would be good! Thank you

It's parents evening next week so I'll mention it to the teacher then.

I think a phonecall /meeting with the SENCO or if they still exist(ours got cut down because of funding) a member of the pastoral care team would be a lot more beneficial. They tend to be better equipped to give advice,recommend services, actually put something in place etc.

Is she angry when she says these things? How is she with self regulation and recognising her needs/feelings? Does she seem like she means it or is it just the way she knows/learned how to respond when she is unhappy about something?

@DrivingMeMadWithManipulation The tidying-up thing stood out to me - I was like this as a kid. Dyspraxia made me very slow, and the knowledge that I was really slow just made me avoid it more. It compounded into one really big "I don't want to" ball.

I'm still insanely slow as an adult. I've been known to bribe my friends to help with particularly big tasks because they can complete it in a tenth of the time it would take me, and actually seem to enjoy it. Whereas for me it's a brain workout and a genuine struggle.

Does she ever talk about her dad and things they talk about when she is with him?

You say she's not worried about losing out on sweets and so on, because her dad will give her them, but he's only seeing her once a fortnight isn't he?

Well my son does try it, but trying is as far as it gets . I call his bluff every single time and remember who's in charge always.

What programmes does she watch? When my dd was a similar age to yours, I had to stop her watching Disney Channel as she was sounding like the sassy teens on there. I know it's hard keeping an eye if she watches YouTube with headphones but you need to listen to what she watches. Some people popular with primary school kids can be very sweary and discuss inappropriate topics.

I've also called my DD's bluff. I would tell her that you'd organise a chat with her teacher so that you can discuss the fake hitting allegation. If she likes her teacher, she will have to back down before she's embarrassed by the truth.

The advice you've received about phrasing things positively is great- "let's tidy up then you can watch YouTube" sounds better than "if you don't help tidy up then you can't watch YouTube"

To an extent, it's normal behaviour (my kids have tried and I've seen other kids in the playground do it) but they usually stop when their peers ignore their threats or they are the target of threats and realise that they have the power to ignore this. "If you're not my friend then I'm not inviting you to my party" is a common one that I've overheard.

@HollowTalk

Does she ever talk about her dad and things they talk about when she is with him?

You say she's not worried about losing out on sweets and so on, because her dad will give her them, but he's only seeing her once a fortnight isn't he?

@HollowTalk once per fortnight for 1 night yes, but if I say "No sweets" say we're in the shop and she's got some at home, she'll just wander off to find ExH (he works in our nearest shop) and he gives her the money to get them anyway.

She only talks about him if asked, she's the same at school apparently, her teacher said she didn't mention her dad at all for the first term or so and had she not spoken to me and established there was a dad on the scene she'd have assumed there isn't.

@cherryonthecakes

What programmes does she watch? When my dd was a similar age to yours, I had to stop her watching Disney Channel as she was sounding like the sassy teens on there. I know it's hard keeping an eye if she watches YouTube with headphones but you need to listen to what she watches. Some people popular with primary school kids can be very sweary and discuss inappropriate topics.

I've also called my DD's bluff. I would tell her that you'd organise a chat with her teacher so that you can discuss the fake hitting allegation. If she likes her teacher, she will have to back down before she's embarrassed by the truth.

The advice you've received about phrasing things positively is great- "let's tidy up then you can watch YouTube" sounds better than "if you don't help tidy up then you can't watch YouTube"

To an extent, it's normal behaviour (my kids have tried and I've seen other kids in the playground do it) but they usually stop when their peers ignore their threats or they are the target of threats and realise that they have the power to ignore this. "If you're not my friend then I'm not inviting you to my party" is a common one that I've overheard.

@cherryonthecakes She isn't allowed her tablet in the week so no access to YouTube or Disney + or Netflix outside of weekends.

She mainly watches cartoons, she loves Nickelodeon for things like Spongebob, but she does like Ryans Mystery Playdate and similar. She doesn't like cbeebies anymore and I feel cbbc is a bit too grown up for her so theres only 1-2 programmes she watches on there.

[quote Chouetted]@DrivingMeMadWithManipulation The tidying-up thing stood out to me - I was like this as a kid. Dyspraxia made me very slow, and the knowledge that I was really slow just made me avoid it more. It compounded into one really big "I don't want to" ball.

I'm still insanely slow as an adult. I've been known to bribe my friends to help with particularly big tasks because they can complete it in a tenth of the time it would take me, and actually seem to enjoy it. Whereas for me it's a brain workout and a genuine struggle.[/quote]
@Chouetted It's usually tidying up that causes the most issues tbh, she's pretty good with other stuff but can struggle with things like loading the washing machine but I can adapt that in a way I can't tidying up e.g. I put all the clothes in front of the machine for her so she's not walking back and forth.

i have never come across a child so young threatening things like this (mother of 4 age 5-21 and many nieces/nephews). I would be quite worried OP. Maybe sit her down and explain the consequences of what she is actually saying and threatening to do and how it makes you feel.

"It's usually tidying up that causes the most issues tbh, she's pretty good with other stuff but can struggle with things like loading the washing machine."

A general instruction to 'tidy your room' can overwhelm a neurodiverse child. Try breaking it into smaller tasks. She may struggle to remember more than 1-2 so you could write them down for her to tick off - bring bin downstairs, put Lego in tub, put clothes in laundry basket.

@twominutesmore

"It's usually tidying up that causes the most issues tbh, she's pretty good with other stuff but can struggle with things like loading the washing machine."

A general instruction to 'tidy your room' can overwhelm a neurodiverse child. Try breaking it into smaller tasks. She may struggle to remember more than 1-2 so you could write them down for her to tick off - bring bin downstairs, put Lego in tub, put clothes in laundry basket.

@twominutesmore I used to stand over her and say "Pick up all the rubbish and put it in the bin" then move onto "Barbies need to go away" etc but it took hours just to get a small part tidy. I will go back to that though as it did at least get done.

The idea of telling the teacher and getting you in trouble is odd. Children are great at tapping in on our fears. Do you/have you in the past worried about things like that?
It reminds me of a time when I didn't feel confident and once I actually felt strong enough to handle everything (some parenting classes) including DCs emotions/behaviour everything seemed to fall into place. If we feel it of our depth it can be very unsettling for children I think.
Separately I wonder how realistic you are about chores. My 7 year old doesn't do a lot. He will empty the dishwasher occasionally with me chatting/putting the dishes away. He will sometimes clear his own dishes (but not always cheerfully!) Tidying toys pretty much gets done with me and usually with an incentive, let's clear up quickly and we can squeeze an extra chapter in etc.

@Updownup

The idea of telling the teacher and getting you in trouble is odd. Children are great at tapping in on our fears. Do you/have you in the past worried about things like that? It reminds me of a time when I didn't feel confident and once I actually felt strong enough to handle everything (some parenting classes) including DCs emotions/behaviour everything seemed to fall into place. If we feel it of our depth it can be very unsettling for children I think. Separately I wonder how realistic you are about chores. My 7 year old doesn't do a lot. He will empty the dishwasher occasionally with me chatting/putting the dishes away. He will sometimes clear his own dishes (but not always cheerfully!) Tidying toys pretty much gets done with me and usually with an incentive, let's clear up quickly and we can squeeze an extra chapter in etc.

@Updownup I actually suspect the telling the teacher has come from her teacher telling her she needs to speak to her if something happens, like she falls over (a whole other thread could be filled on her falling over at school and her flat out refusal to tell anyone about it!) so she's got it from there, she knows the reason why ExH and I split (due to his violence) - I never told her, my mum didn't (another whole thread could be filled with that).

Chores wise all I ask is she tidies her toys, puts her plate in the kitchen after eating and refills the cats water bowl if she sees it empty. The latter two she's actually really good at and the cat one was her suggestion.

I also occasionally ask her to fill the washing machine and sometimes she'll offer as well.

Compared to her friends she does hardly anything I think

@DrivingMeMadWithManipulation - don't spend hours on it! That's bound to put her off even trying! Just spend 15 min max on it, but I'd start at 5 or 10 min whatever means she can get a sense of accomplishment. Give her one job like put those 2 dresses in the dressing up box, while she does that, you whizz round tidying while still encouraging her and keeping her on track. 'That's right, you've got the dress, put it in the basket' etc. Then after 10/15 min. Brilliant, we did some tidying! I think your expectation needs to come way down. If that is all she can manage, it is all she can manage. I know it's frustrating!

Are you comparing her with neuro typical DC?

@UndertheCedartree

Are you comparing her with neuro typical DC?

@UndertheCedartree I think I probably am, I know I shouldn't. The suggestion of 5/10 minutes with her doing a few bits is a good one thank you will try that.

[quote UndertheCedartree]@DrivingMeMadWithManipulation - don't spend hours on it! That's bound to put her off even trying! Just spend 15 min max on it, but I'd start at 5 or 10 min whatever means she can get a sense of accomplishment. Give her one job like put those 2 dresses in the dressing up box, while she does that, you whizz round tidying while still encouraging her and keeping her on track. 'That's right, you've got the dress, put it in the basket' etc. Then after 10/15 min. Brilliant, we did some tidying! I think your expectation needs to come way down. If that is all she can manage, it is all she can manage. I know it's frustrating![/quote]
Seconding this, that sounds great!

I think your expectations are too high too. My dd is nearly 7 and tidying is inconsistent, but certainly not worth getting into a power struggle over. Sure some children might do more at this age. But not all. I would aim for smaller successes as pp have said.

Have a look at Hand in Hand Parenting, it’s a really different approach that sort of side steps you out of power games, and really improves your relationship with your kids.

My 7 year old DS can do this if he is really upset about something, though he wouldn't talk about dying or threaten to tell a teacher. But for example, on Thursday he was upset that I wouldn't go out and buy him a magazine that he knew had just come out, so essentially had a tantrum and shouted things like "if you don't go now, I won't go to sleep at all tonight" (not sure why he picked this, on previous occasions he has threatened to do things like throw his toys all over the floor). I do try and manage how I talk to him, though DH perhaps is a little less savvy about this. But also he has always been very quick to get upset over things etc so part of it is just his personality which leads him to have very strong responses. I know this because my DD, who is younger, is nothing like this.

Geez my 5 year does it. "Mummy you break my heart if I can't watch my iPad." And lovely ones like "I'm so sad you make me go to school." And tries various negotiations and manipulations which he copies from me. He'll say "If do my reading can I play my on my PlayStation." He too will say I should have an phone ban for bad behaviour like shouting I think just say "oi cheeky Mummy's is in charge." Sometimes I do my bad guy laugh too , mwahhh ha ha and think to myself what a smart arse. Occasionally it gets on my nerves if he goes on and on.