to think that post WW2 Western Europe has been an amazing success, considering the total warfare of WW2

[cakeorwine]

Germany and its allies razed European cities to the ground. Murdered millions of their citizens. Carried out horrendous abuses, total warfare.

After years of fighting, the Nazi regime was defeated and decades later, a bloc was formed where countries freely traded with each other, co-operated on issues, formed a defence pact with other countries, and freely travelled between countries.

No matter what you think of the EU, the fact that this was possible, after a devastating conflict is amazing. I don't know how much the older people of Europe, who remembered the conflict, think of the people in the countries who were enemies in total war, but I have always thought it is so amazing to see the people from countries who were bitter enemies engaged in a fight to death only a few decades before, now actively working together.

I don't know what this means for the current situation. It took total surrender in Germany for things to change, It just gives me hope for a future.

Except that it was the US who planned the rebuild of Europe after WW2.

And the US continues to be part of the reason why Putin invaded Ukraine, alongside Putin’s own megalomaniac and expansionist aims.

@Arabellla

Except that it was the US who planned the rebuild of Europe after WW2.

The point is that European neighbours who were at war are now trading, co-operating, working together - which is an amazing thing considering all that happened

Don't neglect Churchills input

But yanbu op

@Arabellla

Could you say more?

I totally agree with you Op. My gran was older when she had my mum, so many of my relatives endured two World Wars in their lifetimes. Nothing is perfect, but in general, for us in the UK and the vast majority of Europeans, the post WW2 era has been a time of peace , stability, collaboration and enterprise. We have been living a charmed life in comparison to previous generations.

Thanks to NATO, which guarantees the safety of Europe and predates the other Brussels organisation.

NATO guarantees military security but the EU and its predecessors were founded on the premise that close economic co-operation and interdependency would reduce the possibility of conflict as countries were reliant on each other. Its institutions also encourage regular communication and compromise which also reduce the potential for conflict. It has been very successful in a continent that his historically been ridden with war.

The EU and NATO are wonderful bringers of peace and rights to the world. The UK should give itself an especially big pat on the back.

I especially liked the part where bombs rained down on Serb civilians, Gaddafi was raped to death with a weapon, and UK supplied arms to the Saudis, though the boatloads of people who drown in the Channel each year because both the UK and France reject them also get an honourable mensh.

I don't think anyone wants to move on or appreciate anything! This is wasted with the opinions of (usually people who never lived through a war) giving their amazing take on it. I also like to think positively. But on here it's a minority.

Nobody said these institutions bring peace to the whole world, but they have brought peace to their member states. Ideally something like the United Nations would have a similar impact, but the more countries are involved, the less likely it is they will all be able to co-operate.

The EU and NATO are wonderful bringers of peace and rights to the world. The UK should give itself an especially big pat on the bac

Kind of missing the point.

Germany razed European cities to the ground. Millions of people across Europe suffered. There was total war.

Now you can drive across most of Europe, freely cross borders, work in different countries, trade together.

I find that amazing, Considering what happened,

The point is that European neighbours who were at war are now trading, co-operating, working together - which is an amazing thing considering all that

We're trading and co operating until Brexit. The current situation was an entirely predicable result of that IMO

We're trading and co operating until Brexit. The current situation was an entirely predicable result of that IMO

You're blaming Putin on Brexit????

@Sometimeswinning

We're trading and co operating until Brexit. The current situation was an entirely predicable result of that IMO

You're blaming Putin on Brexit????

I think Putin saw an opportunity with a divided Europe

I think Putin saw an opportunity with a divided Europe

The EU is not Europe. Putin is not going against the EU. He's pushing on Nato.

This is another reason why the EU is rubbish. All countries should be allowed access to the EU. All countries should be able to opt out. But this isn't a brexit thread so I won't go on

@cakeorwine

The EU and NATO are wonderful bringers of peace and rights to the world. The UK should give itself an especially big pat on the bac

Kind of missing the point.

Germany razed European cities to the ground. Millions of people across Europe suffered. There was total war.

Now you can drive across most of Europe, freely cross borders, work in different countries, trade together.

I find that amazing, Considering what happened,

No we bloody can't! (Thanks brexiteers)

Is Google not bringing up any suggestions for your essay OP?

I agree that on the whole we've had a charmed existence since WW2 compared with what went before. And yes even with Brexit you can trade with and live in other countries (not so much with a British passport but most Europeans can).

But there have been conflicts - the nearest to home being Northern Ireland. And you had the break-up of Yugoslavia as well as various terrorist movements in lots of countries.

@CaMePlaitPas

Is Google not bringing up any suggestions for your essay OP?

Have you never thought how amazing it is to go in a car across Europe, pass cities that were devastated by war, pass memorials to people and towns that were razed to the ground, visit concentration camp memorials, pass scenes of bitter fighting - and then be able to cross borders, see how the citizens of these countries work together, trade together etc.

I have. Frequently. And I think it's amazing.

I agree that on the whole we've had a charmed existence since WW2 compared with what went before

It's not the charmed existence I am talking about.

It's about the fact that bitter enemies now work together. Despite all that happened.

@raspberryjamchicken

Nobody said these institutions bring peace to the whole world, but they have brought peace to their member states. Ideally something like the United Nations would have a similar impact, but the more countries are involved, the less likely it is they will all be able to co-operate.

This. Sir Humphrey (as ever) sums it up.

Europe is just like the United Nations, in fact. The more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up. The more futile and impotent it becomes.

I'm not sure the Cold War and the Iron Curtain were terribly positive.

And the decade long war in the south - with a nation's capital under siege for several years, isn't a shining example either.

Nor the situation in Cyprus

Yes, agree to the extent that far worse has happened. But no to the idea that all of Europe has been peaceful and harmonious

How are you defining Western Europe? With a split through Germany and a wall through its capital?