Working at a cafe without buying anything

[Overthebow]

Yesterday I was at a cafe and a lady came in and sat down, set up her laptop and books and started to work. She had taken a glass of the free water but hadn’t bought anything. AIBU to think she was a CF?

@Skiptheheartsandflowers

It means they need to clean tables more. It means paying customers who are nervous about more crowded places after CovId might decide not to come in. There are costs to any action.

But on the contrary, lots of people would feel self conscious walking into an empty cafe or wonder if it's even open or has a bad reputation, and walk down the road to the next one that has customers sat in it.

Most small businesses rely on goodwill, and may well make a decision to allow a reasonable amount of "table hoggers" for the long term good, i.e. in the hope that they'll sometimes buy something.

As for cleaning a table - if no one's been eating on it, and only drinking water, then it takes about 20 seconds to give it a quick spray and wipe to clean it for the next customer.

I find these threads fascinating. People get so personally outraged at the idea of 'something for nothing', don't they? And the notion of a business owner having a social conscience and giving something back to their community - without making a profit out of it - really blows their minds.

Small-minded, suspicious, sanctimonious British Tories. Selfishness and greed runs through this country like Brighton through a stick of rock.

Selfishness and greed runs through this country like Brighton through a stick of rock.

As evidenced by all the people with laptops in cafes deciding that they don't owe anything to the business owner providing the space and can keep their money for themselves.

@Skiptheheartsandflowers

Selfishness and greed runs through this country like Brighton through a stick of rock.

As evidenced by all the people with laptops in cafes deciding that they don't owe anything to the business owner providing the space and can keep their money for themselves.

Providing the space, lighting, heating and drinking water (and toilet facilities, if the laptopper makes use of them)which the business owner has to pay for.

And actually, even if it is a Costa or Starbucks it is still an individual business. That’s how franchises work.

"Providing the space, lighting, heating and drinking water (and toilet facilities, if the laptopper makes use of them)which the business owner has to pay for."

And as has been said, sometimes business owners are happy to do that.

OP doesn't know if this lady was taking the piss or not.

@CounsellorTroi

Providing the space, lighting, heating and drinking water (and toilet facilities, if the laptopper makes use of them)which the business owner has to pay for. And actually, even if it is a Costa or Starbucks it is still an individual business. That’s how franchises work.

The "marginal", i.e. extra cost, of a person drinking water is minimal. Maybe a spray of cleaner on the table and a few sheets of loo roll, and a few pence of water (if metered). You can't apply any of the fixed costs, as, say, the lighting and heating would be exactly the same if the person was sat at a table on their laptop or not there at all.

As for franchises, yes, I agree, even McDonalds are mostly privately owned businesses, owned by local people. Not sure why people think it's OK to take advantage of a Costa or MaccyD's but not OK to take advantage of a quaint village tea shoppe, both of which may well be owned by the same person! People think nothing of going into a MaccyD's for the loo, but wouldn't dream of doing that in Mrs Miggin's tea shoppe!

@CapMarvel

"Providing the space, lighting, heating and drinking water (and toilet facilities, if the laptopper makes use of them)which the business owner has to pay for."

And as has been said, sometimes business owners are happy to do that.

OP doesn't know if this lady was taking the piss or not.

Which is the crux. It's entirely up to the owner/manager as to who they'll allow into their cafe and how much they spend (if anything). No one else could possibly know what business decisions are made in the background. And like others have said, the "customer" could have been known to the manager, could be staff, or a salesperson crunching some numbers for the owner, etc. It's the owner/manager who decides whether the person in the original post should be allowed to stay or not. Only they know the full circumstances.

It's certainly piossible that she was a CF.

However it's not for customers to police but the owner/staff because it is possible it's someone known to them - staff, family or someone they don't mind doing this for whatever reason.

@girlmom21

It depends on her circumstances - which none of us know.

Doesn't matter her circumstances, she's not in a public space

And yes, lots of business owners do work on a "goodwill" basis when it costs them next to nothing, in the hope of future custom.

Once we went to Blackpool illuminations and got stuck in a traffic log-jam, literally didn't move for over an hour. DS getting more and more desperate for the loo, so we went grovelling into a restaurant we were stuck outside and politely asked to use the loo. We expected eye rolling/sighing and to be told we had to buy something (we would have done), make a charity donation, etc., but the waitress just smiled, said "of course" (she could see the standing traffic) and showed us the way. Because of that, and that alone, we went back a few days later to have a meal, so it definitely worked for them (and we told them why we went back so they knew that a little goodwill does work sometimes!).

Same with my business. Years ago, a couple came in asking for some very simple help with their tax returns - literally a 10 minute job for me to simply explain something to them. They offered to pay, but I was having none of it as it was a quick and simple job. A few years later, they bought a business and appointed me as their accountants which was a job worth £2-£3k per year to me. I'll never know whether they'd have still appointed me if I'd charged them £25 for the "advice" years before, but in my mind, doing that kind of freebie work is marketing.

Another example, a fuse blew in my car and I went to the local dealership (who I'd never used) to ask them how to change it, as I couldn't get the fuse box cover open. Instead of telling me "the trick", the service receptionist came out and opened it for me, then went back to get a fuse, put in it, closed it up etc - all in all, about 5 minutes. I asked him how much we owed and he just waved us off saying it was a freebie as it didn't need to go into the workshop. We then took the car to that dealership for it's services and bought our next car from there too.

Goodwill in business is a big thing. Lots of times it doesn't get repaid, but sometimes it does, and the good often outweighs the bad.

@grey12

What if she worked at the cafe and was doing paperwork?

What if the owner had giving her permission?

Of course there are circumstances where it's ok.

She was a c.f.there are libraries .

@KarmaStar

She was a c.f.there are libraries .

Whether she's a CF or not is for the owner/manager (and only them) to decide.

As for libraries, you do realise that lots of places don't have libraries anymore don't you? Many libraries now run on very limited hours. You may be OK living in a big town or city, but a great many people don't live within easy walking distance of a library these days. Lots of smaller towns and most villages don't have a library!

Somewhere out there is a café manager who sat down at one of her own tables to do some paperwork during a spare hour... and has no idea she caused a bunch of people to fight over whether or not small businesses should offer pro bono community support to the disenfranchised.

@sadpapercourtesan

I find these threads fascinating. People get so personally outraged at the idea of 'something for nothing', don't they? And the notion of a business owner having a social conscience and giving something back to their community - without making a profit out of it - really blows their minds.

Small-minded, suspicious, sanctimonious British Tories. Selfishness and greed runs through this country like Brighton through a stick of rock.

Aww, look at you, all superior and condescending

There is no outrage on here. OP asked a question and others answered. That's Mumsnet.

Of course, we always get the sanctimonious sneerers, for whom the concept of a talk board is clearly too much for their massive intellects

As you say, fascinating indeed

@Overthebow

One coffee shop has now made a designated area for people working which is chargeable by the hour. Means that people coming in can get a seat and if you need to work it’s a quiet space with no need to buy anything as cost is covered.

That’s a really good idea, more places should do this

We have a space like this that you pay by the hour including a 'free' drink.

Without knowing her as a person, you honestly can't say.
She could be the owner, friends with the owner etc and have a standing agreement that she can use the cafe to work.

@ExConstance

There are two cafes I used to go to quite often. One is in the little town I live close to and you cannot get a set in there most mornings because the laptop brigade are settled in for the morning. They take all the nice window seats too. I've given up bothering to try now. The second is in Bristol and it used to have a lovely laid back atmosphere and great cakes. Now it not only has the solitary "workers" but groups of people holding meetings and recruiting. The atmosphere is ruined

@ExConstance - I live in an area which is very popular with cafes (nice ones too) but also has WFH spaces inside a building which is sort of a cafe.

In one cafe I go to regularly (lunchtime or after work) I got friendly with the owners and they said they do get a bit annoyed if people hog a space especially a 2 seater table (they have a breakfast bar type seating too) as that means they're potentially taking up space for 2 people. They even told me there was once a slight argument between someone working on a laptop on a table, a person had come in (full cafe) and they'd asked if they could share the table which first person said 'fine' to but then the person working had started a loud Zoom call, spread stuff almost over the table and the other person got irritated and ended up rushing their lunch and leaving! Owners could see what was happening but didn't want to interfere.

It isn't so bad if the people on laptops are at e.g. breakfast bar areas with stools but at tables and if they then encroach on others and only buy a coffee but are there most of the morning or afternoon. I agree it can ruin and turn the atmosphere of a cafe into a business. The local library is full up most mornings of people working from there.

@Chimchiminie

I feel bad if I just buy a coffee and eke it out over hours – usually end up buying food to justify being there.

Not buying anything at all is cheeky as fuck.

@Chimchiminie - me too - I always buy a coffee/tea and cake or lunch and I try not to stay over e.g. 1-2 hours. But that's because I'm not a CF.

This happens quite a lot where I live in London. I have had people come and sit at my table or right next to me when there is plenty of space and empty tables they could occupy. At first I thought maybe they felt uncomfortable sitting on their own and hence didnt say anything. However, it became apparent in each case they hadnt ordered anything and were just trying to give the impression to the staff that they were with me so the staff wouldnt say anything to them! So yes, it seems to be a ruse to use the free WIFI. I have since drawn attention to people who do this, eg commenting loudly that their order seems to be taking a long time but these people can be quite brazen and the staff dont like to confront them!

@MGMidget

the staff dont like to confront them

It's not really the staff's job to confront them, as they're often young and on minimum wage (and it's no skin off their nose anyway). It's a matter for the owners/management to decide if and when to confront.

"Small-minded, suspicious, sanctimonious British Tories. Selfishness and greed runs through this country like Brighton through a stick of rock."

Just because people don't automatically think it's ok to use facilities for free.

Amazing how generous some people can be with other peoples money.

You want to use a cafe for WFH, then keep buying drinks. Not freeload as their costs aren't covered by other peoples generosity.

And the notion of a business owner having a social conscience and giving something back to their community - without making a profit out of it - really blows their minds

Is that what happened here though?

I never said whose job it was to confront them ‘user’.

The people doing this are CF and they rely on their own brazeness and the reluctance of the staff to confront. It is damaging for a business though because if it happens too often it can be offputting for the paying customers. Eg cafe more crowded means increased covid risk or having a stranger sit right next to you at your table when their are plenty of spare tables is unsettling. You dont know if they are after your purse, for example, and you dont have the usual degree of privacy if chatting with a friend or talking quietly to on the phone with a stanger right next to you.

Obviously if a cafe is very crowded and every seat is taken with paying customers eating and drinking that is just something you have to accept if you want to eat or drink there. But when its less busy and there are other choices I would prefer to give a wide birth to a cafe full of CFs and chose a different cafe!

@girlmom21

It depends on her circumstances - which none of us know.

No it doesn’t. Cafes aren’t charities.