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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Housing Crisis by Design

65 replies

DoorWasAJar · 02/03/2022 20:39

Does anyone else think the housing ‘crisis’ is by design or AIBU? People die in the tens of thousands every year due to damp cold uninsulated housing they cannot afford to heat, what does the government expect to happen to them now, when the fuels prices are getting out of control? Why is it so hard for the government to do the most basic of things, people need proper shelter for God’s sake, not these vile new builds developers are vomiting in dribs and drabs while they hoard the development land. Then they use the guidelines for minimum room sizes as maximums. It just doesn’t seem reasonable to me that we’re not building at the proper rate we should be building at, to ensure the population have shelter.

Sorry for my incoherent rant, I’m just upset about this, many many children are growing up with a terrible quality of life due to this. We should be looking at countries where they’re getting right and learning from them. Off topic but Japan spend the same as the UK on healthcare but are 11 places ahead of us in quality of care.

www.dezeen.com/2016/09/30/phineas-harper-opinion-on-the-uk-housing-crisis-that-isnt-a-crisis/

OP posts:
KeepYaHeadUp · 04/03/2022 17:39

It's essentially 80% of market value. So in wildly unaffordable areas it's still hugely unaffordable

flirtygirl · 04/03/2022 19:22

Georgeskitchen

A quick Google will tell you that 10000 cold weather deaths is actually an underestimate.

The government has its own strategy
www.gov.uk/government/publications/health-matters-cold-weather-and-covid-19/health-matters-cold-weather-and-covid-19

More info at
fullfact.org/online/Excess-winter-deaths-UK/

DoorWasAJar · 04/03/2022 20:18

@sst1234

Mentioning Japan as an example is futile. They do something really smart that we would never be able to because of the unproductive, hard of understanding blue haired nimby protestors. They knock down older housing stock and build new. Anything older than 30 years is not seen as fit for purpose. We, on the other hand, are so wedded to older, badly insulated, high maintenance relics because they have ‘character’. Doesn’t matter about affordability and functionality, especially for those on low incomes - character is more important. The political narrative is overwhelmingly occupied by leftie middle class public sector types who are hell bent on avoiding progress at any cost. No matter how much hardship it brings for others. The political spectrum of full of people like these.
Just saw an article on the Times (btw, they let you subscribe online but can only cancel by telephone, very odd, other countries have laws against that) about this couple and how they de-gassed their house built 1900. Apparently they couldn’t bear to cover the red brick exterior with insulation, as it has the ‘original character’ - it’s so backwards it hurts! It’s all about how it looks and not how it functions, it’s appalling.

Japan is not a good example for building, it’s only their healthcare that impresses me as they spend the same as us but with much better results. Their buildings are flimsy and not insulated very well either which is why they get torn down after 30 years.

This article explains why their houses devalue over time: www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/16/japan-reusable-housing-revolution

OP posts:
DoorWasAJar · 04/03/2022 20:19

@KeepYaHeadUp

It's essentially 80% of market value. So in wildly unaffordable areas it's still hugely unaffordable
Definitely this ☹️
OP posts:
DoorWasAJar · 04/03/2022 20:21

@VelvetChairGirl

Homes in the is country are shit, please explain to me how the coldest city on earth manages with its soviet housing with triple glazing, the entire house heated by GSH altho different looking heating units to ours, which maintain the house to at least 20 degrees.

but I am sitting her in front of a fan heater in london in our mild winters because I cant get my 1 bed flat to be more then 10 degrees warmer then outside, and thats with bubble wrap on the windows etc

everything is moldy anyway and damp, even with air bricks, our homes are just shit, poor standards very poor and backwards in every way, too cold in winter, too hot in summer, shitty old fashioned bathrooms and kitchens, lack of storage, no solar or wind etc on new builds no real energy efficient heating systems etc, no storage, no space your lucky if the builders even factored in how large a bedframe is before buildind, and insanely over priced to boot so no one can afford them or they get trapped paying for them for the rest of their life until they have to sell them to pay for care.

government and builders are taking the piss, thats what happens when you vote in tories decade after decade, nothing ever improves theres very little difference between a house built now and one 200 years ago except size, we are way behind, yet no one cares so they keep building crap as some one will buy it for an investment.

I hope the entire housing market implodes massively leading to a great depression and a total crumbling of the current neo lib capitalist system, its long over due.

Yakutia! I also wonder the same. In the former Eastern Bloc the concrete houses are super warm and can barely hear neighbours, it’s the opposite here, why do we put up with such poor conditions?
OP posts:
Graphista · 04/03/2022 20:39

GeorgesKitchen major charities involved in poverty and homelessness causes think that the "official" stats on how many people are dying due to fuel poverty, food poverty, homelessness are WAY underestimated.

I remember (this may have already happened and not been reported I'm not sure finding it VERY hard to find information on this now funnily enough) some years back one of the coroners unions/associations was mounting a legal challenge to universal credit on the basis that the levels of poverty it was causing was literally killing people! They noted a massive spike in certain conditions (malnutrition, certain nutritional deficiency conditions, increase in certain life limiting disabilities etc) following the widescale introduction of universal credit. I know they had FOI requests regarding the number of deaths directly attributable to malnutrition based causes refused! I believe they took that to a higher level but have been unable to find out what the result was (I look for this info every so often mainly as I think it's utterly disgraceful that none of the main news agencies reported on it - it was mainly in local news outlets that it made it through to public attention)

People are literally dying because of these greed motivated policies and procedures!

On a number of threads since uc came in myself and others have stated this, provided links and research and we get shouted down every time!

Life can turn on you in an INSTANT! I hold 2 degrees, I had worked full time since the age of 16 and when I first became too ill to work I was horrifically naive and ill informed about how the sick, disabled, poor and otherwise vulnerable are viewed and treated by the govt, by the welfare system. It's been a HUGE learning curve so I get that if you haven't (yet?) been in that position you may well be just as naive BUT then don't dismiss the knowledge and experience of those of us living it!

Due to the pandemic a number of people I know have lost their jobs some for the 1st time in their entire adult lives have been out of work for more than a month or two. They have often been completely shocked and blindsided by just how bad it is! I've had some very...interesting conversations with people in this position who previously voted Tory, who believed the welfare system and the dwp was genuinely helpful and supportive to those needing them, who believed it was relatively easy to claim fraudulently etc it's been a massive wake up call for them.

Graphista · 04/03/2022 20:54

Yes I do think the left have a propensity to create ‘I’m alright, Jack’ outcomes. More so than they right. Virtuous intentions and bad results is what the left is all about.

I completely disagree I think you're talking about a certain type of person who CLAIMS to be left leaning but actually isn't. I've come across them too. Claim to believe in fairness for all...until it DARES to cause any inconvenience for them! Scratch the surface and they may not be Tory voters but likely vote snp, Lib Dems or similar but NEVER labour, even when it was new labour! (Which was Tory lite anyway but this kind of person didn't even vote labour then)

True left leaning people want fair and humane treatment of everyone from basics (housing, warmth) upwards even when that causes inconvenience for those better off.

Problem we have now is that our economy has been structurally weakened by people who have only opinions but no ideas

Again I disagree

Our weak economy ALSO goes back to Thatcherism as Blossomtoes has already referenced.

Thank you Blossomtoes it is NOT the left that tend to be nimby/I'm alright jacks at all!

Thatcher and thatcherites didn't care about the society them and their policies created - as long as it didn't negatively affect them! (See my earlier point re left and right)

Housing was sold off purely for short term gain, the same applied to school fields and outbuildings, council owned sports fields, almost every manufacturing and resource based industry we had! Coal, steel, tin, electronics manufacture, energy, telecoms, public transport...

The list goes on and on.

They sold pretty much EVERYTHING without giving a fuck as to the long term consequences for the country.

They'd have sold the nhs too if they could have got away with it! They absolutely wouldn't have at that point as their main voters very much remembered a time before the nhs.

Since then NO uk govt has truly invested in uk industries and talent. We have among the most skilled and talented people in the world with regard to IT and electronics, mechanical and civil engineering, the arts (theatre & cinema not only actors directors etc we produce the best special effects techs etc too, music we have not only great artists and songwriters etc we have fantastic technicians and producers), economics and accountancy, environmental science, pharmaceutical science and several others - we lose them to USA, Asia, Canada, Australia etc because we don't only not pay them properly (not talking loads enough to live on in some cases!) we don't value them and nurture them and their industries

With regard to energy we are an island with a huge amount of coastline in proportion to land mass, we get high winds in most elevated areas and yet we don't maximise the potential of tidal and wind power. This would serve the environment AND keep bills low IF publicly owned and controlled within the uk

We have amazing scientists who've developed and invented various ways in which to reduce energy use, use alternative sources of energy eg for fuelling cars but we don't support and develop this.

I'm old enough (just) to have known and paid certain bills and known how costs related to income BEFORE Utilities etc were privatised/sold off and shareholders decided on costs to maximise profits.

Worst thing that EVER happened to this country in living memory (for most) and definitely in terms of the long term ramifications to not only costs but environmental damage, health effects etc too

Short sighted, greedy, corrupt politicians is why!

But also people continuing to vote for them!

Graphista · 04/03/2022 21:13

KeepYaHeadUp

Thanks for posting that info

I've certainly seen places especially recently while house hunting that are advertised as "affordable" but don't meet the conditions you listed there - how and why are developers etc allowed to get away with this? Because of corruption and cronyism! The exact problem we had with the last (honestly admitting they are) tory govt

I'm aware/relatively knowledgeable about 2 areas in the uk where there are major issues with lack of genuinely affordable housing for people already living in those locales. In both cases (one in England one in Scotland) there have been 2 or 3 recent development schemes/new estates built in the areas advertised/marketed/claim to be "affordable" housing and yet they're as much as 75% more expensive than similar size and quality albeit older homes in those areas. One of the areas they weren't actually new houses they were old houses refurbished (there may be a more correct term but that's how locals see it) and then put up for sale for again WAY more than similar properties in the same area sell for.

The developers also reneged on promises/requirements to provide suitable infrastructure for these new estates one in particular is going to court in the near future as a group of the residents that bought properties there on the understanding that certain elements were yet to be put in place at time of sale and then never happened are suing. They managed to find a solicitor to take it on as a class action. After the initial stages of the case were begun it then transpired that there were also issues with toxic materials in the foundations that were supposed to be "cleaned up" and it's turned out they cut corners there too - illegally so. It's shaping up to be quite a scandal!

Situations like this are happening because greed trumps integrity every time under a Tory govt - always has always will!

Graphista · 04/03/2022 21:15

why do we put up with such poor conditions?

Culturally we are TERRIBLE about complaining properly about anything!

I lived overseas for some years a couple decades back and the difference was obvious very early on.

Moaning and complaining are not the same thing.

Moaning is ineffective and often directed at the wrong people who can't effect change.

Complaining is assertive, direct and communicated to the people who can effect the change you need.

This goes for everything from basic customer service in shops and restaurants to expecting our political representatives to do their jobs and represent our needs and evolution.

Graphista · 04/03/2022 21:16

On another thread of a similar topic a number of us advised the op to complain formally to their Mp (nuisance neighbour issue, neighbours were council tenants and clearly breaking a number of laws in addition to general anti social behaviour) because (as usual - I've had to deal with such crap too!) the council and even the police were not only doing sod all! They were making the op feel as if she were inconveniencing them by expecting them to do their bloody jobs!

Ops response when we initially said "get onto your mp" was "am I allowed to do that? For this?"

She was absolutely unaware that she had the right as a constituent to speak to her mp about ANY local issue that was affecting her or her family.

Unfortunately this is quite deliberate by certain mps in certain areas. They don't hold surgeries, they don't make it clear to constituents that they CAN contact them about matters troubling them, HOW to contact them etc

KeepYaHeadUp · 04/03/2022 22:09

@Graphista

"In both cases (one in England one in Scotland) there have been 2 or 3 recent development schemes/new estates built in the areas advertised/marketed/claim to be "affordable" housing and yet they're as much as 75% more expensive than similar size and quality albeit older homes in those areas. "

The "market value" will be based on the market value of compatible units part of the same development. If a 3 bed on the development sells at double an "old" 3 bed then it will be 80% of the higher price, not the entire market.

It's common for developers to get out of delivering policy compliant levels of affordable housing, infrastructure, etc. Historically theyve been able to argue they've overpaid for the land meaning selling units at less than market value will make the whole thing unviable. That's more difficult now. Lots of infrastructure is delivered by Third parties (schools by DfE/LEA, healthcare by CCGs/PCNs) so sometimes these things fall through and it's often out of the developers' control.

Graphista · 05/03/2022 00:28

keepyaheadup

Oh I know it's a long standing issue (developers not truly sticking to regs)

The infrastructure I'm talking about in many cases/ways WAS down to the developers control - suitable drainage, suitable sewerage provision, energy supply, driveways in order that the (too narrow!) roads aren't clogged with parking..:

They take the utter piss!

As I said one of those developments it has transpired that they have illegally not cleaned up a toxin issue - this is not just the home owners being "miffed" to learn of this, this has been learned following investigations into a rise/unexplained level of occurrence of certain sometimes serious illnesses in some of the owners and their children BECAUSE The poison wasn't dealt with as they were legally required to do!

I know in USA they would be getting prosecuted for corporate manslaughter etc for this (yes it's that serious this includes certain cancers and other life limiting conditions I'm astonished it's not in the national news tbh) but they seem to be perfectly capable of getting away with such appalling behavior here!

Graphista · 05/03/2022 00:35

The market value stuff to me seems to be frankly a load of excuses!

But we don't have a govt that has the desire or interest in getting a common sense definition of "affordable" created

Ask an ordinary working class person in the street what "affordable" means in this context and they'll say something along the lines of

"What a person on nmw can afford bearing in mind other standard living costs"

At the very least!

Seriously not one Mp I can think of who behaves as if they've ever had to manage a tight household budget!

Polyanthus2 · 05/03/2022 05:40

The huge rise in the cost of heating should cause a shift - who wants a big house if you can't heat it.

OmgIThinkILikeYou · 05/03/2022 06:07

I have lived in 2 newbuilds and never had an issue with it being under insulated. We don't need the heating on all winter, just occasionally if it is especially cold. No idea about ventilation but we don't have a mould or damp problem so I assume it's fine.

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