Pre-School Behaviour - interested to hear from parents and teachers

[MarchHare22]

I could do with some advice from more experienced hands, I posted in Parenting but haven't had a response yet.

Eldest DC is at pre-school with an age range of 3 to 6. My DC isn't the youngest and isn't the oldest.

They started at this particular one after we moved house in the summer. I was delighted especially that we managed to get in as it is supposedly so lovely and always oversubscribed and after DC going to a slightly (dare I say it) rougher pre-school near where I used to work prior to moving.

All wonderful at first but since Nov I feel there has been a shift that I couldn't put my finger on, close to Xmas DC told me two things about someone pushing them and pointed to a picture of a few other children (same-sex) stood together (from the closed nursery Facebook group) and said that's the one that hits me....DC wouldn't then point them out of the group and I only knew one of their names so wasn't sure which one they meant. Left both these things as they're going to happen aren't they as a one off, DC is still so little relatively and I had no idea in what context or whether they were indeed telling the truth/remembering correctly.

Since then there has been a lot of mention of one individual not being 'kind' and being 'angry' and 'bad' (we don't really use angry or bad) and the pushing, but we have no idea if they are remembering that one incident or if this is ongoing. I chatted to a couple of people in confidence and it appears this person is a 'known offender' as are more than several others inc who we now think is the 'hitter'.

All these kids are closer to 5/6 I believe, certainly older than DC.

On Sun I asked DC if they were looking forward to going back to school tomorrow and they didn't say anything for a while and then said 'everyone hits me' I was like whoa?? Whaaatttt. DP and I broke this down between us and it's clearly not everyone but we think it is these two particular individuals one pushing and being mean (from things DC recounted) and one hitting. I asked DC re the hitting and asked do they say anything, DC said 'no they just get grumpy face and hit me'. And last night at bedtime I was asking them about school and they said 'everyone always has a grumpy face' and looked a bit sad.

I'm ashamed to say I was shocked, it is a fee-paying preschool and given, granted, the limited information I have would have thought the children would come from nice homes and be being well brought up, and certainly wouldn't be happening on the scale this seems to be. It involves around 5 protagonists (not all with my DC though) and having spoken to others and thought about what DC has told me goes beyond just playground/toddler sillyness as the ones who are doing it are very much old enough and bright enough to know better I would ave thought.

I have though been advised not to bother saying anything as it has been previously explained away and minimised and the feeling is establishment are unwilling to do anything.

The conversations I have had are along the lines of well it could be a lot worse, (sub text...at a worse place). The thing is DC has been in a worst place, granted not for long at all with Covid and then moving in the summer, but nothing like this was ever mentioned and incidentally, I spent a lot of time on-site at the previous place (outdoors) last spring/summer on and off as DC was struggling to settle, I witnessed nothing that would indicate such behavior. The people I have spoken to have seen this going on more than once in the play area and on school outings at this current place.

So what do I do? Is this normal, from the children to the school's response?? I think we should say something but DP on the fence given what we've been told.

Also incidentally, DP, our CM (who sometimes does pick up) and I have also noticed the parents of these children (who we're definitely sure of). Are so unfriendly/cliquey to downright rude in comparison to others!

It's normal for young children to act a little bit Lord of the Flies when they're all together in a big group and away from their parents, just look at how brutal soft play can be.

Raise it formally with the school and make specific reference to both their behaviour policy and their bullying policy, put your concerns in writing so they can't gloss over your points and request a meeting to discuss it further. For all kids can be foul to one another there is a difference between an isolated incident and an ongoing series of incidents.

Sorry, I might have missed something but I don't understand the age range for that pre-school. Why are 5/6 year olds in pre school? Surely they should be in reception Y1 by now (if in England anyway). Are you in England?

The difference in age and size may be part of the problem.

@HumunaHey no not England.

It doesn’t sound at all normal and if you feel like it’s being minimised then that’s even worse. It’s awful to read your ds said everyone has a grumpy face!

Whatever’s going on, he’s not happy there. I’d find another setting.

Sounds like you've done a lot of gossiping with other parents, but haven't actually spoken to the school?

Have you spoken to the teacher at all yet? Usually if your child tells you someone at school hurt them the first thing you do is ask the teacher what happened.

Honestly I don't think the setting is a good place to send your child if they think it's fine to have 3 year olds in with 6 year olds. Of course the 6 year olds will dominant the younger children both verbally and physically.

I would look to move him to a setting which had smaller age ranges for their groupings. He really should be with children on a similar developmental level to him and his own age.

@FairyCakeWings I know, oddly that has cut really deep. I do not personally know it is being minimised I have been told it has been raised previously and minimised but I haven't raised it yet so not my direct experience.

[quote MarchHare22]@HumunaHey no not England.[/quote]
Aah, ok.

Children are still developing a moral compass at that age and I do think it is a bit of them seeing your DS as smaller and younger. There's a big difference between aged 3/4 and 5/6. It's definitely worth flagging this point with the school.

@busyeatingbiscuits mmm I think that is unfair, DC is still very young and will say random things, and at first we didn't know it was anything more than a one-off, plus honestly I'm a little wary of these parents.

A couple of people made an off the cuff comment prior to Xmas and I confided what DC had told me as it related and asked them what they thought...they then told me more. DC hasn't said anything else - until last week, that made me think right we need to raise this with the school.

I agree with Beees that you need to move your child as it is clear the ratio of staff to children isn't enough to stop this happening.

My own DD attends two settings which has mixed aged groups, however the older children and younger children aren't expected to always play together and are properly supervised when they are to prevent this nastiness.

I would be wary of school yard gossips too, very often those who gossip to you will also gossip about you.

[quote MarchHare22]@busyeatingbiscuits mmm I think that is unfair, DC is still very young and will say random things, and at first we didn't know it was anything more than a one-off, plus honestly I'm a little wary of these parents.

A couple of people made an off the cuff comment prior to Xmas and I confided what DC had told me as it related and asked them what they thought...they then told me more. DC hasn't said anything else - until last week, that made me think right we need to raise this with the school.[/quote]
OK, well when you encounter this again or at another school, go straight to the teacher. Let school deal with it.

Gossiping with other parents about which children are rough or naughty and what you guess the school's response will be isn't going to resolve anything and just leads to cliques of parents bitching about each other's kids/parenting.

However tempting it is, don't start chatting with other parents about the 'known offender' - remember they are little children, you don't know what is going on behind the scenes, let the teacher do their job.

I work in a preschool in the UK with a mix of ages 2-4 in one big hall and that is tricky enough at times. I can't imagine 3-6 year olds mixing very well to be honest! That's such a huge difference in abilities and physical size and it sounds like the preschool aren't managing it very well. Of course you will get some "hitters" or not so nice children, just because it is fee paying doesn't mean the manners and parenting will be better. Have the staff ever spoken to you regarding these pushing incidents? That would worry me if staff are not seeing this, and indeed if they do know they should be keeping an eye on said children and have strategies in place and parents should be informed of their child has been hurt. Obviously especially with younger ones it is hard to intervene every single time an issue occurs - generally for us it is sharing issues, and sometimes despite the best will in the world you can't be their right away. However if it was a repeat offender we would have someone shadowing, intervening and modelling the desired behaviour. I would highly suggest speaking to the school especially if your child is becoming unhappy there before it becomes more.

@busyeatingbiscuits thank you, as i said the first time we decided to take it as an isolated incident and we were then advised 'not to bother' speaking to the school, but I will take your advice as an education provider. It wasn't meant to be gossiping and it has allowed me to know exactly who the hitter is, DC will still not tell me (they are still pretending they don't know what their name is).

@justanothermanicmonday21 I think that is just normal here but, I get the impression that because of COVID for some reason there are more older ones than there would normally be. Yes @RedWingBoots has mentioned the ratio and this has made me think as no one has ever mentioned anything to us and I'm wondering if the previous minimising is because they are just not seeing the bulk of it. What would a normal/prefered ratio be?

In the UK the ratio would be around 8-13 3 & 4 year olds per adult, and between 15-30 5 & 6 year olds per adult.

@Hospedia oh yes I know what you mean but it wasn't catty/gossipy more matter of fact and it was helpful to add weight to the fact it wasn't just a flight of fancy from DC.

OP we use both a childminder and a nursery on different days.

So the nursery ratio is as busyeatingbiscuits said but our nursery also takes 2 year olds so the ratio for them is 1 to 4.

The childminder ratio is 1 to 6 under 8s with only 3 under 5. (There are more specifics to the combinations but this is in general.) The childminder only has children over 5 after school and in the school holidays, and tends now to only have one or two.

Thank you @busyeatingbiscuits and @RedWingBoots I think the ratios are fine then. Perhaps they are seeing it but are dealing with it without telling me?? I think the feeling I got thigh was that it wasn't been spotted. But I don't know how not it's a large enough group doing it and I think they are all friends.

I just feel a bit sad that I'm thinking well do I need to take DC out. I get that there's always one and often a reason but here's there's several and I don't want DC to be 'outlet' for these children's issues.

I'm ashamed to say I was shocked, it is a fee-paying preschool and given, granted, the limited information I have would have thought the children would come from nice homes and be being well brought up

I'm sorry, but this is just a really shitty thing to say.
My kid goes to a lovely school where children come from nice homes and are well brought up. He's still having issues.
The one boy he's having particular issues with I know his parents well. They are lovely. They are good parents. Very good parents. He is still hitting and it's impacting my son. I think it's very ignorant to assume that children who come from nice homes can't also be mean little bullies at times!

Sounds to me like an issue you need to discuss with the pre school rather than gossip about a young child at the school gates.
You and the other parents have judged these children, found them guilty and are now gossiping about their families and backgrounds. Your dc hasn't even named the child who pushed them you and the other gossipers have just 'worked it out'.

Stop gossiping and call the school.for a meeting about what is happening to your dc and how to sort it. Don't make assumptions about othee children or families.