I'm so pleased that the supply of German helmets has finally reached Ukraine

[MaMaLa321]

• and been left at the border.

Seriously, AIBU to think that the EU (AKA the maintainer of peace in Europe) is pathetic. Understandably, I know. Italy has lobbied successfully to have its luxury products left out of sanctions. Germany has successfully blocked the removal of Russia from SWIFT. I know that this thread is petty, faced with what Ukranians are facing as we speak - that is why I've started a separate thread so that I'm not hi-jacking more serious threads. But all this, to me, has just shown how fucking useless the EU is.

What could be the consequences of EU/German troops moving into Ukraine (even if they were 'only there to drop off an order') just as Russian ones have invaded?

Have a think about it.

If you need a little nudge in the direction of how that would be interpreted, how about;

'German troops have entered this conflict as an aggressor. It is clear that this is an act of war against Russia by NATO/the EU'

or

'German soldiers have been killed by Russian forces whilst delivering supplies. This is an act of war against NATO forces which cannot go unanswered'.

or

'Look, we've got NATO troops coming in and joining Ukraine forces. If China stays neutral, they will undoubtedly do exactly the same regarding your 'rightful' sovereignty over Taiwan/Hong Kong/the northern islands of Japan' 'Yes, you are right, this aggression and interference in your internal matters must not be allowed to continue lest they then turn their imperialist eyes towards our own nation' [China then goes further to escalate matters in the Far East and calls in the favours purchased through multiple investments in African nations where Uranium and other precious resources are located]

not to forget

'The gas supply is permanently off as a result of Western imperialist aggression. Have fun meeting your power needs' [Oil prices go through the roof, China cuts off supply of steel, coal, manufactured goods and everything else, etc, etc...]

and

'Shit. The banking system is down. All those trillions of dollars, gone. Nobody has money. The supply chain has folded and deliveries of food items aren't happening. Health systems have frozen and medical records lost, no treatment is possible.'

Seriously, think about it. All they could do was the military equivalent of Amazon knocking on the door and legging it back to the van before you've got off the sofa, as the consequences of being found, never mind attacked/imprisoned/executed/murdered in Ukrainian territory would have been catastrophic.

Well Ukraine has received (rather more useful) military aid from elsewhere. How was that managed?

from what you're saying, we'd be better off doing nothing and crossing our fingers that Putin doesn't go further than Ukraine.

OP you have no idea what you are talking about - go back to to you vodka bottle!

so, about what in particular? The pathetically low level of aid from Germany?

I think the helmets are because Germany's constitution (post WW2) does not allow it to supply armaments, anywhere.

What Putin has done is diabolical and I'm sure the response is imperfect, but we cannot have NATO military there for the reasons @NeverDropYourMooncup has outlined. I'm getting the feeling Putin would welcome any reason to up the ante even further

I’m interested in OP’s last question- does anyone know?

@Bonheurdupasse

I’m interested in OP’s last question- does anyone know?

This is a guess, but I imagine it was delivered before the invasion and Putin's threats about intervention. I accept that I could be wrong.

The policy of appeasement worked out so well last time

@MaMaLa321

so, about what in particular? The pathetically low level of aid from Germany?

Why only Germany? The Ukraine is not a NATO member, there are rules and agreements covering NATO. I can only repeat that you have no idea what is going on.

Appeasement never works 😳

@Bringsexyback

The policy of appeasement worked out so well last time

Arguably it did. Tragic as the immediate consequences were, the reality was that we could not have saved Czechoslovakia and, at the relevant time, Chamberlain was being told by the armed services that they simply were not ready for war. They had only been rearming for four years, had only two badly-equipped army divisions available to deploy abroad, and had been limiting aircraft production A year later, they were considerably better prepared but we still came only too close to defeat. It's very dangerous to accept the simplistic view of Munich which Churchill espoused.

Tbf I think the only stumbling block on Swift is now Hungary iirc

I think some NATO countries are sending more weapon supplies now.

It is a bit of a joke that Italy held up sanctions talks so that they can still get money from the oligarchs buying designer Italian goods, Belgium made sure that they could still sell diamonds as well.

Why pick on Germany? For a start as part of the Allies direct input, Germany has some restrictions that severely curtail its military actions.

Also, if the EU and US had not actively sought to destabilise and helped a military coup against a democratically elected president to replace it with a super nationalist president who paved the way of far right groups to rise to power, Ukraine would not be in this mess right now. Ditto for pissing contests by NATO who held maneuvers right at the borders and US warships close to the Crimea etc. Ukraine is the only nation with openly neo nazi elements in its army and police forces. Its National Druzhina street patrol unit carried out pogroms against the Roma and LGBT organisations, attacks against women’s groups, book banning and storming a municipal council. My heart goes out to those poor people on both sides that are caught up in this but not for Ukrainian's chauvinistic far right regime.

@NannyKrampus

Why pick on Germany? For a start as part of the Allies direct input, Germany has some restrictions that severely curtail its military actions.

Also, if the EU and US had not actively sought to destabilise and helped a military coup against a democratically elected president to replace it with a super nationalist president who paved the way of far right groups to rise to power, Ukraine would not be in this mess right now. Ditto for pissing contests by NATO who held maneuvers right at the borders and US warships close to the Crimea etc. Ukraine is the only nation with openly neo nazi elements in its army and police forces. Its National Druzhina street patrol unit carried out pogroms against the Roma and LGBT organisations, attacks against women’s groups, book banning and storming a municipal council. My heart goes out to those poor people on both sides that are caught up in this but not for Ukrainian's chauvinistic far right regime.

Although the far right elements are fact (and go back a long way in Ukraine, such as SS division Galicia) it is only fair to point out that the current Ukrainian president is Jewish with family members who died in the Holocaust. As he has said himself, he is vanishingly unlikely to be a neo Nazi.

Why pick on Germany? For a start as part of the Allies direct input, Germany has some restrictions that severely curtail its military actions

That is loosely applied, they have sold weapons along with the UK to Saudi re yemin etc.

It's a law that is rarely but is often trotted out when they don't want to help.

As for the rest of your 'poking the bear' rhetoric it's just basically sixth form 'west is bad' that is just laughable, as a pp has pointed out the Ukrainian president is Jewish

@NannyKrampus

Why pick on Germany? For a start as part of the Allies direct input, Germany has some restrictions that severely curtail its military actions.

Also, if the EU and US had not actively sought to destabilise and helped a military coup against a democratically elected president to replace it with a super nationalist president who paved the way of far right groups to rise to power, Ukraine would not be in this mess right now. Ditto for pissing contests by NATO who held maneuvers right at the borders and US warships close to the Crimea etc. Ukraine is the only nation with openly neo nazi elements in its army and police forces. Its National Druzhina street patrol unit carried out pogroms against the Roma and LGBT organisations, attacks against women’s groups, book banning and storming a municipal council. My heart goes out to those poor people on both sides that are caught up in this but not for Ukrainian's chauvinistic far right regime.

If NATO hadn't held exercises in the territory of its own member states, and if the USN hadn't sailed in international waters, Russia wouldn't have invaded a sovereign nation? Really, @NannyKrampus? So by that logic, we would be ok to start a war with Russia, given its military presence in Kaliningrad, exercises in Belarus and its navy sailing in the North Sea, English Channel, etc.

Yanbu. The EU, particularly Germany and Italy, have been a disgrace.

Yanbu. The EU, particularly Germany and Italy, have been a disgrace

I mean your missing out on Belgium wanting to secure selling diamonds to russia, after all everyone knows how ethical the diamond mining market is and how Belgium is really wanting to make sure they keep a job.

I will caveat by saying I voted remain as well

Well whatever some others may feel, I'm ashamed by the lack of action by western nations. I'm counting down the days until China sees the lack of action and attacks my many friends in Taiwan.

I think I may be ok with the luxury goods angle… taking money off oligarchs is different to supplying essential goods and services into Russia that could be used to support a war effort. Arguably it hinders Russia by taking money out of their economy in return for useless diamonds and handbags while helping maintain EU economies.

On the face of it it sounds really crap though

@FloBot7

Well whatever some others may feel, I'm ashamed by the lack of action by western nations. I'm counting down the days until China sees the lack of action and attacks my many friends in Taiwan.

It's just like in 1982 when Admiral Leach walked into Parliament, sought out the Prime Minister, explained that the Navy could send a task force to the Falkland Islands and added "and we must!"

"Because if we do not, or if we pussyfoot in our actions and do not achieve complete success, in another few months we shall be living in a different country whose word counts for little."

The same applies here. If we left Putin get away with this, every other dictatorship will see that they too can realise their own imperialist wet dreams. No amount of protestations from the west will have any effect because they will know that it is all talk.

The EU is not Germany.

A fraction of the member states opposed SWIFT sanctions, the vast majority were in favour. But hey, don't let that stop your jingoistic vitriol.

The politicians are a disgrace. But so many people are trying to help.
I’m volunteering with a group by the Hungarian-Ukrainian border. Our email must have been shared online and the offers are pouring in from all over Europe. A small book club in Italy raised €700, an outdoor shop in Austria sent a car with blankets and sleeping bags, a group of students in Ireland bought us petrol vouchers. We got a truckload of food from a supermarket chain (the British one 😉) and I could go on.
It’s the governments, not the people who should be ashamed.

If nothing else this has exposed how utterly pathetic the EU is in terms of being able to defend itself?

Even if not as a collective, where is a strong German army? Spanish army? French army? Where?

It beggar's belief, all belief.

The gas they are guzzling and paying for, they are funding this war of Putin's themselves!

It's a miracle that the German army had any hat's to give them.

Let alone kindly leaving them at the border.