Government stuffing young people again, student loans

[Binjob118]

Great day to bury the news that from next year student loans will be repayed over 40 years instead of 30. This makes a massive difference. Hate this government and Tony bloody Blair for stopping free tuition. Of course, won't affect all the rich kids who never take out the loan. This on top of impossibility of young people ever being able to buy a home makes me want to scream. Totally screwed. Certainly don't think IABU!!

@Frankola when I was doing my science A levels way back in the mists of the 90s as I was predicted well over 2 Es myself and those in my Maths class who were also only doing science A levels didn't apply for any of the post-1992 universities as we discovered that plenty of red brick and plate glass universities had courses we could do and would want to do as an alternative where the entry requirements were 2 Es every year in Clearing.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@CouldIhaveaword yet many of these employers don't want fo take on apprenticeships or youngsters and bring them up through the ranks either
They want it all done for them with no effort
Years ago many companies took on school leavers who then worked way up
My friend went straight to a bank at 16 and eventually became a bank manager on average grades [/quote]
Because why invest in training someone who will leave after 2 years for something else? In the past people went into jobs for life - not so much now.

@CheshireSplat I don't get it either.

Probably because I'm over 40 and work in a STEM field, so worked with people who have a broad range of undergraduate degrees from engineering to sociology.

In the UK, unlike many countries, the undergraduate degree you do isn't necessary linked to the career you go onto. So this is why you find lots of young people doing degrees like economics, forensic science, sports science and business studies.

I graduated in 1985 when far fewer people went to university. From a FSM household, I received a grant and there were no fees.
But the grant covered about 40% of my costs, so I worked all through my degree and every holiday. There were no loans and no benefits so if you didn't work, you dropped out. Without wealthy parents it was a slog. It wasn't easy.

But I had a job offer before graduation (STEM degree) on a decent salary. I've paid higher rate tax for 35 years, so I repaid the cost of my degree.

That system worked better. I wasn't wealthy but education was still available to me if I really wanted it. And at no long term cost to the tax payer.

@labyrinthlaziness I am not snobbish at all.

But the underlying issue here is that the government have used student loans as a way to make money. As a result of this universities have taken increasing amounts of students at lower performance levels and the value of having a degree has hugely decreased.

Concurrently, society has been told that all kids should be trying to go to uni. This leads to increasing pressure on families to fund university education, which is now expectation rather than exception.

Obviously this makes the government a load more money but places many families in a crap situation financially.

My main point is that if people want that to stop then uni's should go back to how it was previously. Not expect the public to pay for every kid to go to uni.

@echt

As the pandemic showed it’s also fantastically important to have people to work in care homes, work in supermarkets and drive lorries non of which require you to write 12,000 word dissertations. Why on earth should they pay tax towards people that out earn them? They should be taking home more in their wage

Why should the child-free pay taxes for the self-indulgent sproggers?
Why should those with cars pay towards public transport?
Why should with every intention of jumping off a bridge at 60 pay towards pensions?

Your random examples are talking about distribution of wealth to benefit all.

My point was that non degree level jobs are vital to society and benefit all too. However it’s not creating equality or a better society for the poor to give the rich a leg up is it?
If someone wants to study or get the away from home experience of Uni
I’m all for letting them. I hate the “ I’m the first person to go to Uni in my family”.I don’t think University shouldn’t be elitist. I don’t even care if someone studies tourism as a pp said and smokes weed for the 3 years. Just as long as they pay for it and the classification reflects that.
Returning to the system where only “the best and brightest” go for free will enviably benefit the wealthy.

Because why invest in training someone who will leave after 2 years for something else? In the past people went into jobs for life - not so much now.

I don't think people leave jobs because they don't want job security. They generally want better pay, conditions, progression etc

@roastedsaltedpeanut I wouldn't advise any young person to train as a gas engineer (well actually it is a gas technician unless they are going to get a chartered qualification) as during their lifetime we will stop using natural gas.

I would however encourage them to train as a plumber who specialises in heating so that way they will have the mindset that they need to continue to learn and re-skill as necessary so they aren't in the scrap heap in their 40s.

The idea of degrees in this country is that they equip you to know how to learn throughout your life. While there are some careers you have to have a specific undergraduate degree as an entry requirement, there are lots that don't require that but expect you to have postgraduate and/or industry qualifications.

@containsnuts they can always have clauses in that if you leave in a year you pay back etc
But many leave as they don't get whats promised and were just used as cheap labour , some don't even get a job when the apprenticeship finishes

@InMySpareTime exactly why iS it so hard for people to grasp this
The interest is shocking

Its funny no one has an issue paying jobseekers and benefits to some who don't work ( medical reasons excluded ) my nephew is 23 he now has a part time job in last couple months but rom leaving school at 16 until now hasn't worked through choice, 18 onwards he claimed benefits so for 5 years , he has cost the tax payer more money than my ds will with 3 years of uni
Yes pay back the loans but lets not charge such high fees in the first place and keep the interest sensible , I bet theres no loss even though most don't pay back as the interest is so high , they wouldn't be willing to loan otherwise

@MintJulia - you are quite wrong. I went to university on a full grant. Unlike some of my peers on lesser ones I didn’t need to work! Dh received minimum grant, his parents refused to make it up, and so he went into debt and had to work. I don’t know anyone who dropped out for financial reasons. And, where you are quite inaccurate, is saying there were no benefits. Wrong! You could claim dole in the holidays. Embarrassingly it was the regular meet-up joint and we all went out to a greasy spoon afterwards

An educated population is a healthy population!

There is no such thing as education being wasteful or pointless!

You want to know why the UK has such inequalities? Such poverty? Because you’re attitude to uplifting your own citizens stinks! It’s always about “I don’t want them having more than me”. “Why should I pay taxes for those kids to have this or that”.

This is the most disgusting attitude to young people and the well-being of your own citizens I’ve seen. It’s shameful!

It’s no wonder that Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia is doing better than you! You refuse to learn from nations that offer free education and higher quality of life! You wonder what we are doing so well.. because we invest in education and well-being initiatives for young people. I got a free education and a stipend from the Swedish government to study. While you are making politicians who hate your richer ensuring only their children get a good education. You people are really insane! I’ve never seen or heard such foolishness.

You’re becoming a nation that’s good only for oligarchs and your wealthy. You are showing no care or concern for your young or your future. Good luck with that.

In 20- 30yrs you will be wondering why you have no social care and why your young people have no homes or children. Because they can’t afford. Or they will leave the e UK to go to lands who will invest in them.

If you aren’t willing to invest in your people then you are lost! People are the biggest asset a nation has. You are an example of how not to treat young people and no young person in their right mind would stay there knowing how bleak their future is.

You think you’re immune to brain drain.. well let’s see how this policy plays out for you in 2-3 decades. Good luck with not investing in your young and your children.

Also to those saying we need an educated workforce….. well, can anyone prove that people are more educated now? My parents didn’t go to university (like 90% of their generation) but could do the Times crossword no sweat. My primary-school teachers were clever people with broad knowledge.

A degree these days is sadly not a guarantee that the holder is educated at all. Training is another matter and for that apprenticeships should be the route.

@BigGreen I believe an economics degree would help you understand the economy more than a history degree.

@DottyHarmer

Also to those saying we need an educated workforce….. well, can anyone prove that people are more educated now? My parents didn’t go to university (like 90% of their generation) but could do the Times crossword no sweat. My primary-school teachers were clever people with broad knowledge.

A degree these days is sadly not a guarantee that the holder is educated at all. Training is another matter and for that apprenticeships should be the route.

Yes, people are more educated now. General literacy etc are higher and many people lacked basic mathematical and scientific skills back then.

The fact your parents could do the Times crossword is just anecdata, not real data.

[quote Frankola]@labyrinthlaziness I am not snobbish at all.

But the underlying issue here is that the government have used student loans as a way to make money. As a result of this universities have taken increasing amounts of students at lower performance levels and the value of having a degree has hugely decreased.

Concurrently, society has been told that all kids should be trying to go to uni. This leads to increasing pressure on families to fund university education, which is now expectation rather than exception.

Obviously this makes the government a load more money but places many families in a crap situation financially.

My main point is that if people want that to stop then uni's should go back to how it was previously. Not expect the public to pay for every kid to go to uni.[/quote]
I disagree, there is huge societal value in educating young people.

Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing, as the saying goes.

Sadly the politics of envy is one of the most unfortunate aspects of our society. You see it reflected in our press and the way we love to build people up and then drag them down, tall poppy syndrome is alive and well in the UK.

We completely fail to understand the difference between training and education. Education is life enhancing, its not about exams or stamps in books its about broadening your mind and most importantly it can never be taken away from a person, it is the greatest gift that we can give our young people because you can take away the coat on someones back , their job , even their liberty but you can never takeaway their mind. It doesn't matter whether you do a 'graduate job' (what even is that) being educated is always a benefit.

Training is for a job it is specific and narrow and utilitarian, equally valuable , but entirely different . The standard of vocational training in this country is appalling, people claim they want better vocational training as in Germany , but in Germany children are separated into different schools , not unlike the grammar system and we don't like that either do we.?So we condemn millions to an education in which they are unable to succeed .

We have the most anxious, unhappy and demoralised teenagers in Europe. We have an epidemic of mental health disorders in our young people. This cannot be unrelated from the turgid education system which values test scores and a narrow curriculum ill suited to the majority over breadth. We spend more time stressing over whether children are wearing the right shoes or have the right monogrammed shirt or hair colour than we do their mental health. Then we tell them that if they d succeed they get to pay through the nose to be educated in an undervalued higher education system where they are meant to be grateful for being fleeced by unscrupulous property companies and poor quality curricula, honestly I despair.

@MarshmallowSwede exactly why can't we look and learn what works well in other countries
My honest thinking is there are two kinds of people that begrudge this
Those that are worried more working class people may actually start doing better and competing jobs and then those that are ai worked at 16 100 hrs a week so why shouldn't everyone else
Many uni students will work part time alongside their course as shock horror the loans don't cover it all, most will get a job of some kind so will be paying taxes
Maybe if higher education was seen more of a norm we might have less people relying on benefits as they have easier access to higher education, and find something they are good at
We are expected to work until 66 now prob be higher for this generation so whats the issue if they don't work fulltime until 21
The fees could be cheaper and the interest low , then the loans would be paid back

@DottyHarmer yes lets scraps gcse and see if people can do the times crossword , great way to test

Tuition fees should be scaled on the value of the course to society. Healthcare should be free, maths and history should be £1K per year, dance or film studies should be 100K per year. There would be competition for the cheaper courses but this would mean the best candidates get onto those courses. People who just want to go to uni could still do the Mickey Mouse courses but would need to take the massive loan which would effectively be a tax for the rest of their working lives.

Thanks Labour!

[quote downtonabbeyfan1234]@BigGreen I believe an economics degree would help you understand the economy more than a history degree.[/quote]
Depends on what you study in the history degree.

One interesting thing about the pandemic is that it helped to show how many subjects are linked and have cross-overs with one another, due to the number of academics who appeared in the media showing their specialist subject area.

@worriedatthemoment the retirement age will be 67 if you are born after March 1960, and there is a plan increased to 68 if you are born after March 1969.

I think they are capping the interest rate though. So it just means that graduates are paying off the loan rather than just paying interest on it, which makes a bit more sense in a way. At they they have the opportunity to see the loan paid off at some point rather than endless payments with no hope of ever paying it off.
This will help some people. For instances if you suddenly start earning more in later life and you have been paying of bits of the loan not just the interest you will have less to pay overall from there on in.

@MorningStarling What is a Mickey Mouse course?

Some courses have stupid titles but if you actually look at what the course covers and delve into the modules you release it isn't a Mickey Mouse course and in some cases actually is allied to an industry.

For example Golf Course studies. Sounds Mickey Mouse but we actually have loads of golf courses in the UK and need people to run and manage them. Yes the person could do Business studies degree instead but then it will take them longer to be useful in the industry.

Also allowing people do to certain courses for free or at reduced fees isn't helpful as you could do a degree in say nursing and then become an accountant. I actually know people who did similar. Or you could do a civil engineering degree and become a ballroom dancer like Oti Mabuse.

Finally cheaper courses actually cross subsidise courses that are expensive for universities to run particularly if the university can't get enough foreign students on their expensive courses in a particular year.