New fence has fallen down - am I liable to pay?

[Darcy2]

We paid £3000 in May 2021 for a new gate, and our back and side fence to be replaced through a local company. The company then sub-contracted the work (with our knowledge and consent) to a tradesperson. There were 11 panels in total - quite a lot of money but we thought we'd get at least a decade out of it! Lo and behold the storms have battered us, with one wooden post and panel falling, whilst the other 10 panels are all teetering / leaning.
We messaged and sent pictures to the company that we used (the contractor, not sub-contractor), who have said "well it has been windy", so there would be an additional charge to have repaired. They also said that it wouldn't be unreasonable to go through our home insurance!

I flatly refused to pay to have the same guy come out - if he couldn't do the job properly in the first place I'm not paying for him to do it again! We had a local landscaper come out to quote us on repair (quote still pending). When he came, he said it was a really awful job, as they didn't use long enough fence posts, didn't cement them in, didn't screw the panels to the posts and didn't use a base next to the soil, so our 9 month old panels have already started rotting at the bottom.

We have gone back to the original contractor with this feedback who are now ignoring our messages.

My question is, AIBU expecting them to come and repair / rectify their shoddy work? I'm not sure legally where I stand. Or should I just suck it up and get another tradesperson to fix?

Is this a typo? Surely you mean £300?

What kind of garden gate costs £3000?!!!

Also, I agree with a pp. Lots of insurance policies don't cover gates and fences now. Ours doesn't.

OP, did you not notice that you had 6 foot panels with posts only 3 foot high? Did that not look really odd?

Simplest thing to do is send a letter before action and ask them fora full refund and then go online and file for small claims court. Get a report from the guy you had come out and look at the fence. Maybe get a 2nd person out to look.
Go to court armed with the evidence that they did shoddy work not following industry standard for this sort of fence.

@BakeOffRewatch

long enough fence posts, didn't cement them in, didn't screw the panels to the posts and didn't use a base next to the soil

This was your issue before they fell over. Not cementing them is awful, that’s one of the main reasons I would pay someone else!

Yes, this bit is where your problem lies. And what you should concentrate on getting rectified.

The fence blowing down in wind is just one of those things.

""I've also noticed on the invoice that VAT wasn't included as it was considered a cash job... so not even sure I can legally take action now anyway!""

Least of your concerns, but as an accountant I can attest that many builders/ trades/ even small parts shops, do not separate out the VAT on their invoices. If he was doing it cash it is unlikely he would have given you an invoice at all.

I think the not concreting in part is the bit I would go back on, the wind/ knocking over is just one of those unfortunate things right now.

@Itsalmostanaccessory

OP, did you not notice that you had 6 foot panels with posts only 3 foot high? Did that not look really odd?

Simplest thing to do is send a letter before action and ask them fora full refund and then go online and file for small claims court. Get a report from the guy you had come out and look at the fence. Maybe get a 2nd person out to look.
Go to court armed with the evidence that they did shoddy work not following industry standard for this sort of fence.

The posts were the same length as the fence - I presume the guy meant that they should have been longer and deeper!

[quote Itsalmostanaccessory]@endofagain

Why would you suggest trading standards when you clearly don't even know what they do?

I see trading standards suggested all the time on mumsnet. Why? They wont help you.

Trading standards do not help individuals with any specific problem. Their job is to look at complaints from consumer advice and if anything crosses over into illegal or dangerous, usually with multiplier complaints about the one company, they will investigate the company. They then might fine them or shut them down etc. That's what they do.

They dont do anything about each specific individual case. Your complaint may add to a pile of complaints and help have a dodgy company shut down, but that's all. Trading standards will not get you any money back. They wont mediate between you and the company. They wont do anything that actually helps you as an individual to get back what you lost or have work redone.

I wish people would actually understand what a service does before they advise it for every consumer problem.

Trading standards do not deal with individual complaints and do not find you a solution.[/quote]
Wow!
I have had helpful advice from them in the past! It was only a suggestion. You sound very angry!

Thanks for all of your advice. I've just telephoned them and although defensive and still refusing to come and see the shoddy work for themselves, they have 'compromised' on paying for the repair of the one broken panel and post. They are far too busy to do this themselves though, so have asked me to outsource and send them the bill (for that one). As for the rest, well that was just the weather apparently! Not sure I want the hassle of going down the legal route - but lesson learned, I'll check reviews before finding the first available person next time!

@endofagain

Trading standards dont even take phone calls from the public.

You need to call consumer advice. They can give advice for any problems and help you figure out next steps. They will then pass on any relevant complaints to trading standards and they will do their own thing.

So no, trading standards wouldnt even give OP advice.

For a 6ft fence I’d expect 4” posts.

The 3” posts are for smaller fences. I’d also expect the posts to be at least 8’. 18” in the ground, 6” gravel board and then the panel on top.

When we replaced ours we used concrete posts and gravel board (more expensive but so worth it) and the panels slot in so can be easily replaced. Our panels are 12 years old and we’ve had to replace 1 where a tree fell on it. All other panels are fine.

Email confirming your discussion, in case they refuse to pay later.

This sounds like a right bodge up from the start.
This won't help you now, but as a rough rule of thumb you can expect to pay £150 per fence panel fitted (this includes cost of the parts (post, panel, bottom board cement etc) and labour) This was applicable in 2021 so prices have shot up and might be thirty percent more (shortage of materials)

Also you might like to ask local people for a recommendation rather than trust reviews on line.
My DH has his own business, no website or Facebook page or anything and doesn't advertise, but he is inundated with work through word of mouth and excellent workmanship.
He doesn't charge enough either, bur that's for another day...

I hate hearing of people being ripped off, it sounds like the sub contractor didn't know what he was doing sadly.
I feel for you OP, it's making me feel annoyed with them too.

@Soontobe60

Erm… you do know there’s been a whole series of heavy storms this past week don’t you? This is what home insurance is for.

Erm, did you real her whole post?

My husband put our fence in. We have 4ft concrete godfathers concreted into the ground with wooden fence posts bolted to them and fence panels screwed to the posts. We do not have gravel boards. We have been in our house 30 years and have only replaced the fence twice.

If you can't reach an amicable settlement making a claim against the contractor is quite simple using Money Claim Online - a Government website. You just need to follow the steps, which includes sending letters setting out the problem and giving them a chance to rectify the issue (best sent 'Signed For'). It doesn't cost much but if you are successful the costs are added on to what is owed.

This won’t help OP, but the same happened to us in a storm, although the fence wasn’t new, we had inherited it when we moved.

Instead of wooden fence posts, we had them replaced with concrete, and fence panels are slotted between them. If the wood panels get damaged, or just get old, its simple just to buy replacements and slide them in. No problems with the bad weather, they are solid as a rock. Just a suggestion in case anyone is replacing their fence.

The wooden posts are the real issue.

Good luck with getting them to pay the bill when you send it to them! I suspect that may not happen

Fence damage isn’t included in home insurance

I assume it depends on the policy. Many policies include extra cover if you pay extra for it. What you probably do have in any event is legal cover, so you could ask for legal advice.

If you had wooden posts, it probably doesn't matter that the fencing was new if the wind was harsh enough. We've gradually replaced ours with concrete posts and supports and our fences survived this time - you pay more for this so it depends what was offered to you at the time. But if you think the work wasn't done properly it's definitely worth pursuing it.

Gates, hedges and fences are not normally covered by buildings insurance in cases where the damage is caused by storm or flood.
In terms of the VAT not being quoted, I don’t think it should affect your rights, but you could always report the Company to HMRC for tax evasion, and leave an honest review on trust a trader/Facebook or any other organisations they are part of, if they are not going to at least take a look at the damage and either confirm that the work was sub standard so they’ll repair/replace it or say that it was done correctly and give you a fair quote to repair/replace it.