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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Child maintenance

467 replies

Lalala1 · 20/02/2022 14:35

Posting here for traffic!

The amount of threads on mn surrounding child maintenance I’ve noticed there’s completely opposite opinions on it.
Some find the way it’s calculated fair some don’t.
Some say it doesn’t cover everything and “certain things should be split” out with cms.
Some say people get too much because they only get lower and are “greedy ex wives” so they should be grateful.
Some say the rules around calculations are wrong and should be changed.

So I’m curious if you were in charge of cms what would/should it be?
How should it be calculated?
Should it cover everything or not?
How would it or could it be changed to be fair for all children?
Or
Is the way it is set up and conducted fine as it is?

Just putting this for vote

YABU- cms is fine as it is no change
YANBU - cms should be changed and how?

OP posts:
GlitteryGreen · 23/02/2022 16:29

@ChiselandBits

glittery but cms does go to the RP to put food on the table etc. If less comes from the nrp so that it can go to his further children, that money has gone direct from one household to the other. The RP will likely make up the difference if they possibly can, so they are, in effect, subsidising the other parent and by extension, the new child.
I do see the point in principle as it is obviously less money in their household, but I still don't agree that that would be the RP subsidising any new children as CM has never been a guaranteed part of their income, regardless of whether they think of it that way. From day 1, it was always changeable.

As quattro says above, if the RP makes up that shortfall by continuing to spend the same regardless of the drop from NRP then they are spending more money on their own children, not subsidising the other household.

My take on it would be that if the RP has been able to afford certain extra things up until now solely due to the increased contribution from the NRP and that now has to reduce, then that's just one of those things.

HOWEVER, I am basing this on situations where extra than CM is being paid and then has to stop due to changes on the NRP's side (not just new babies but job changes, money problems), rather than situations where the NRP literally pays CM and not a penny more towards anything for the children, and the RP is struggling to put food on the table.

roarfeckingroarr · 23/02/2022 16:30

NRP should have to split childcare costs.
There should be serious repercussions for not paying.
There shouldn't be deductions for new families.

ChiselandBits · 23/02/2022 16:34

Oh believe me I know that. But I don't think it's right to just accept that one parent can legally divest themselves of so much responsibility with no come back. If we, as a society accept the current situation that allows nrps to essentially desert, in many cases, the children they are 50% responsible for, that's a massive failing. And no, I don't think it's fair that kids should have to drop activities and hobbies and probably friends when their nrp decides to start a new family. In your case Quirky it's been lovely of you to provide for your SS but I hope they are ready to accept that drop because I can see it not being perceived too well by them which might impact their feelings about their new half sibling. I really hope it's fine, and that's within your own household so entirely your choice, but when the drop gets shifted to the exes household that's more difficult.

ChiselandBits · 23/02/2022 16:38

Ah, glittery Cross posting. No, I am talking about cms only. I think nrps who voluntarily pay more are generally decent people who will not drop their contributions short of real, unavoidable need. Those who pay only cms, well, that in itself is so far short of the mark in most cases that its no surprise they'd use every chance to reduce it further.

Getyourarseofffthequattro · 23/02/2022 16:50

@ChiselandBits

quattro yes, paying more for your own children to replace the funds redirected by the nrp to their new child. It's one step removed but still there.
No, it's simply paying for your own children. Your not subsidising anyone elses. Your money isn't going to them - it wasn't yours in the first place.
Getyourarseofffthequattro · 23/02/2022 16:52

@ChiselandBits

In concrete terms, let's say the nrp reduced the cms by the exact amount that covered child one's football subs to help cover the difference in his household by his partner being on mat leave. Does the RP have to find that amount now, increasing the % of her own income that goes on the child, or does child give up football? What is the fair solution here Quattro ?
Well it depends whether the other parent can afford it. In short of course things change when new kids come along. That's life.

You're having an absolute laugh if you think a reduction in cm would equal anything like a reduction in wages due to mat leave though! Grin

Pinkyxx · 23/02/2022 16:59

[quote GlitteryGreen]@Pinkyxx Jeez, sorry your ex was so brutal about 'the family he wanted', that's awful.

Financially, I just think the whole thing is so hard and fraught with emotion weaved through it as well. Nobody wants to feel that their child is being short-changed or sidelined because another baby is born, and I can see how a drop in CM could feel that way. People also wouldn't want to feel that their child has a far lesser standard of living on their side of the fence and I can see it must be hard when an ex is wealthy and able to offer so much more.

I'd also say though that there can be complications in that many (not all of course) mums would not want 50/50 or similar even if it was offered and I can understand that feeling - I know for a fact my mum and the majority of my friends who are mothers would never want to be without their child 50% of the time, or close to. I think I would massively struggle with it too. But then this obviously impacts on their ability to work and earn, and leaves them at a disadvantage there. And can also breed feelings of resentment over having to shoulder most of the care burden alone.

As for CM being/not being 50%, I guess that is hard one too because realistically there is highly unlikely to be an overall agreement on how much will be spent on the child each month (obviously as it's just not practical to even attempt that) and the NRP does tend to lose some influence over that side of things due to not being present for much of the time. There is also the fact that a lot of the child's essential living expenses are enmeshed completely with the RP's - housing, electric, heating, food etc. So if you took those things away, perhaps it would be 50%? But obviously those things can't be taken away, they are essential and inseparable, but do also need to be borne by both parents on their own sides of the fence.

The whole thing is just a minefield and I think there will never be a one-size-fits-all or definitely right/definitely wrong approach.[/quote]
@GlitteryGreen despite all my ex's flaws, he is our child's father. Our child deserves her Father in her life. I would have hated to be apart from her 50% of the time without a doubt, but to stand in the way of a relationship with her Father for my own comfort would be something I could not have lived with. I would have greatly preferred an arrangement that was not to my personal preference to the 10+ years of watching our child try to reconcile why her Father wants so little to do with her and treats her so differently to her half / step siblings (this is not just a financial thing...). As it happens his mistress lived a significant distance from us, and wanted to stay there given her children were there as was her ex (obviously understandable). He moved to where she wanted, weekend contact was the only feasible approach. This left me no choice whatsoever in the matter, it didn't help he changed the locks on our jointly owned home and rented it out thus making me homeless at the same time. He did vow that if I refused to move to where his mistress lived (100's of miles away from our home) that he would ensure I suffered financially in every possible way he could inflict upon me, and he has been true to his word. If I complied, he would pay 50% of everything until she was independent post uni. As he has reminded me many times over the years it was my ''choice'' to be in the situation I am in - I could have done as I was told and all would have been so different. Justice is the reserve of the rich and I certainly didn't have the money to fight him or the energy. I was already broken from years of being assaulted.

I accept my case is perhaps not the norm, but my point is any system that enables and encourages this is fundamentally not fit for purpose. You will find many stories of children living in poverty due to irresponsible NRPs leaving a trail of children in their wake citing exactly various justifications seen on this thread for not supporting them financially. We'd all like to live our ''best life'' and the NRP has no more right to his than the RP which is why I speak of 50% of costs. While costs are enmeshed, data exists which could be used to quantity these costs and extrapolate to a payment, there is simply no will to invest this level of effort to make NRPs accountable. A complete societal shift is needed and I don't believe this will ever happen.

GlitteryGreen · 23/02/2022 17:02

In concrete terms, let's say the nrp reduced the cms by the exact amount that covered child one's football subs to help cover the difference in his household by his partner being on mat leave. Does the RP have to find that amount now, increasing the % of her own income that goes on the child, or does child give up football? What is the fair solution here Quattro ?

To be fair though, presumably if he is having to reduce in order to cover the big shortfall in his own household due to his own partner being temporarily paid far less/nothing at all then that's a necessary drop in order to maintain the roof over their heads and pay essential bills? Which during that time is more important than the child continuing football.

So yeah I'd say either mum pays until dad's contribution is back to normal, or the child temporarily stops playing until they can rejoin.

But again, this is based on a genuine situation where the NRP is in genuine need of a reduction to the payment.

ChiselandBits · 23/02/2022 17:03

quattro oh I know they're not comparable, just trying to put some real terms in instead of abstract ideas. I still disagree that the it's acceptable for the nrp to reduce funds available to the RP for the joint child for a decision that dies not involve the RP or the child. Realistically the RP will almost always make up the difference and the nrp gets to hide behind the rules that they're doing nothing wrong. I think they are, you think they're not. We might have to leave it here as we're not going to agree.

GlitteryGreen · 23/02/2022 17:04

@Pinkyxx I am really sorry to read your story and to see that your ex has been such an arsehole to you, and to your DD too. You sound like you've done a fab job without him in any case x

SartresSoul · 23/02/2022 17:13

@QuirkyTurtle

because Dad is busy playing happy families with someone else’s children.

This is such a disgusting phrasing I see on here. Sorry dad wants to move on with his life and happened to fall in love with someone who has children.

No issue with the NRP moving on with someone who already has children but their own biological children shouldn’t receive less because they made this choice.
Finallylostit · 23/02/2022 17:14

To be fair though, presumably if he is having to reduce in order to cover the big shortfall in his own household due to his own partner being temporarily paid far less/nothing at all then that's a necessary drop in order to maintain the roof over their heads and pay essential bills? Which during that time is more important than the child continuing football.

So yeah I'd say either mum pays until dad's contribution is back to normal, or the child temporarily stops playing until they can rejoin.

Stopping and starting an activity like football is in the main impossible so the NRPs child suffers socially, developmentally and developing skills because the NRP has had another child and his DP is now on mat leave so monies are tight.

AS we all know most RPs woud not do that to their chid and will find the monies - so the chilld is not discriminated against by its NRP. ERgo the RP is subsidising the NRP family, new DPs maternity leave - no choice for the RP, other than to hurt their own child. Not a good place and not morally right.

I paid and helped my EX during the last 2 years because it was morally the right thing to do and him keep a house over his head. However, he second EX was not quite so nice and demanded everything on old rates and no compromise - so I effectively subsidised my Exs second Ex and his other child so that he could pay her over inflated CM!

Mylandnotyours · 23/02/2022 17:30

Some RPs are screwed over. Some NRPs are screwed over. Some cases everyone is happy

Statistically, it is way more likely that the RP is screwed over. About 40% of maintenance owed through the CMS is paid and of that, the average payment is something like £25 a week. The pretence that NRPs are hard done by with the legal amount they have to pay is galling. My children haven’t received a penny in 13 years.

GlitteryGreen · 23/02/2022 17:37

Stopping and starting an activity like football is in the main impossible so the NRPs child suffers socially, developmentally and developing skills because the NRP has had another child and his DP is now on mat leave so monies are tight.

AS we all know most RPs woud not do that to their chid and will find the monies - so the chilld is not discriminated against by its NRP. ERgo the RP is subsidising the NRP family, new DPs maternity leave - no choice for the RP, other than to hurt their own child. Not a good place and not morally right

But as a temporary measure I really don't think it's that bad if the RP picks up the cost until the dad is back paying the normal amount. He will still be contributing to his children, just not as much for that time.

Someone who is reducing their payment based on their partner's drop in income must be paying over and above CM as they wouldn't be able to reduce that unless their own income had dropped. So in that case it's reasonable that there may be times they might not be able to pay quite as much, especially when their partner is not working so their household (which does include SCs too) is massively down.

ChocolateMassacre · 23/02/2022 17:43

@Mylandnotyours

Some RPs are screwed over. Some NRPs are screwed over. Some cases everyone is happy

Statistically, it is way more likely that the RP is screwed over. About 40% of maintenance owed through the CMS is paid and of that, the average payment is something like £25 a week. The pretence that NRPs are hard done by with the legal amount they have to pay is galling. My children haven’t received a penny in 13 years.

It's not the RP who is screwed over, it's the children.

Not all RPs are financially in a position to make it up to their child because their other parent won't step up and take responsibility.

beachcitygirl · 23/02/2022 18:37

This is one thread that I wish would end up in the Daily Hatemail but you can bet your ass it won't.

beachcitygirl · 23/02/2022 18:43

My ex is supposed to pay me £170 a week (and that's only on what he declares he earns.. his tax return could have been written by Agatha Christie) and he still only pays £40 a week.

If I didn't house/feed/clothe care for my sen child then i would rightly have Social services breathing down my neck or removing her.

Why the hell is it ok for him to not feed or clothe or care?
And don't get me started on his current primary school teacher gf. Who believes every single word that comes out of his lying narcissistic mouth. (The usual - I'm a psycho ex, I'd only spend it on hair & nails, I won't let him see her blah blah blah)
Give me strength. Cms is a shit show.

LacasadeBernadaAlba · 23/02/2022 19:05

It's not the RP who is screwed over, it's the children

Totally disagree. Having not received maintenance for many years, it is me that has paid the price. I stopped making pension contributions because I could no longer afford it so long term, the impact on me will be massive. Better hope I drop dead sooner rather than later. My children have not gone without and I have kept a roof over our heads. But there is a price for that.

Getyourarseofffthequattro · 23/02/2022 19:08

@ChiselandBits

quattro oh I know they're not comparable, just trying to put some real terms in instead of abstract ideas. I still disagree that the it's acceptable for the nrp to reduce funds available to the RP for the joint child for a decision that dies not involve the RP or the child. Realistically the RP will almost always make up the difference and the nrp gets to hide behind the rules that they're doing nothing wrong. I think they are, you think they're not. We might have to leave it here as we're not going to agree.
Well you can think what you like really! It's not hiding behind the rules, it's life isn't it? No we aren't going to agree, because you cannot understand that the first child isn't more important than subsequent children. I'll never agree that one child is superior to another, either way.
Pinkyxx · 23/02/2022 19:17

[quote GlitteryGreen]@Pinkyxx I am really sorry to read your story and to see that your ex has been such an arsehole to you, and to your DD too. You sound like you've done a fab job without him in any case x[/quote]
@GlitteryGreen thank you, that's very kind of you.

caringcarer · 23/02/2022 19:48

It is not fair for purpose. 1. A man who moves in with another woman who has children with someone else should not mean child 1 gets less maintenance. It is different if man goes on to have another child of his own.

  1. Allen should be forced to pay for any children they father. Punishments should be dished out to make that happen. Take away driving licence and passport are powers that CM have but very rarely use.
  2. Money should be taken out of wages by employer and paid across to person who cares for child.
  3. Non resident parents should have to pay half towards school trips and uniform, including shoes.
Finallylostit · 23/02/2022 20:24

Where does society think it is OK for an NRP to toss the RP - £5, £20, £200 pcm and think that covers the raising of a child.

Whilst they waltz off, build a new life and become drop in occasionally parents.

It should be illegal to not support your DCs and the punishments should be harsh.

Getyourarseofffthequattro · 23/02/2022 20:28

@Finallylostit

Where does society think it is OK for an NRP to toss the RP - £5, £20, £200 pcm and think that covers the raising of a child.

Whilst they waltz off, build a new life and become drop in occasionally parents.

It should be illegal to not support your DCs and the punishments should be harsh.

Waltz off and drop in occasionally?

The standard court ordered contact is generally eow and one night a week, so perhaps blame judges for all the dropping in occasionally?

I agree, it's shit, but for some people it's not a choice it's what they get given by either the RP or a court.

Some, clearly, are shits who can't be arsed, but I'm not sure it's in a child's best interest to have someone forced to spend time with them who clearly does not want to be there... Speaking from experience with my own dad there.

Hiphopboppertybop99 · 23/02/2022 22:34

Apologies if i am repeating, I have not RTFT.

The problem actually lies with the large % of parents (be it mum or dad) who the child(ren) live with for the lesser amount of time (if any) who do not want to support their children. Once they are separated they do not want to give money to their ex partner - this is part of the problem they see it as giving the other parent money, and their mindset is not trained to think I must financially support my child.

Money is always a sensitive matter, there may have been acrimonious divorce / separation proceedings and this then continues into the maintenance aspect.

If the mindset of parents was different then the services of CMS would not be required. Except maybe in some certain situations.

However, again if the mindset of parents was different, I.e. they paid CMS amount, did not put barriers up to enable the CMS to do their work, we're not difficult / uncontactable then again the service provided by the CMS would probably greatly increase.

With regard to high earners, whereby, the RP definitely knows the PP earns more from the time they were together- due to their bills, spending, holidays, cars lifestyle etc. Yes in theory they are 100% correct, however, the way in which the PP probably declared their income (ie not all of it to HMRC) highly likely hasn't changed since the time they were together as a couple - it more than likely wasn't discussed and maybe the RP was unaware of this. Or if they were they suddenly want the CMS to be able to prove this.

Turning to what is the fair / right / correct amount for the PP to pay to support a child - well who knows?? Even the CMS has changed the way they calculate maintenance over the years.

A PP very early on said it should be a minimum of £300 per month per child. This may well be unaffordable, I know I certainly wouldn't like it if I was told that everyone will pay the same amount of tax regardless of what you earn (maybe not a great example- but couldn't think of another). So one person earning £18,000 p.a will pay the same as someone earning double them??

Hence I believe (from reading other threads) on here that's why, it is a % of the PP earnings, the same reasoning behind how we pay our tax - a % of our income, relative to what we earn.

I may think £50 per week per child is fair. That's roughly £400 per month per child assuming the RP matches the PP contribution, if as so many people say it should be half of a child's needs paid by the PP. Someone else may think it should be £100 per week per child, that's £800 per month for the child's needs.

What should be included as part of a child's needs ? Childcare costs ?, clothes, toys, uniforms, school trips, activities, gadgets for older children?

Childcare costs - MN consensus seems to be that childcare costs should be split to enable the RP to work, not fall behind in their career. What if, when the child is young PP also needs Childcare when they have the child with them. What if the PP doesn't need child care, but would like to pay for an activity whilst the child is with them? How would that work?

Reduction for children living with the PP - this is always a divider. If happy couple have child, and can afford a certain level of lifestyle, but when a second child comes along, they maybe can't afford a takeaway twice a week, now its ony twice a month, or instead of spending £100 on new shoes, it has to be reduced to £50, they have to reduce their outgoings to enable them provide for everyone. In certain ways this is similar to a biological child of the PP with a new partner. Just because child 1 was here first, doesn't mean they are entitled to more.

A little more difficult is the PP living with children of their partner, whilst in theory they are probably providing for the child(ren) - should a reduction be allowed? I honestly don't know what the right answer to this is.

I don't think there will ever be a right / wrong, fair or not way of working out how much a PP should pay.

ChiselandBits · 23/02/2022 23:29

quattro nowhere have I said that child one is more important or worth more than child 2. Literally nowhere. What I have said is that IF an NRP decides to have more children, that should not be at the expense of the first child. If that isn't feasible, then don't do it. You cannot keep saying "oh but that's just how it is with all siblings." A split household is a totally different set-up to a united one. Saying that one child is more important than another is an emotive, straw man position, and not one that I hold. I am not arguing on the basis of more important, but on the basis of existing obligations. As a pp said upthread, if you've maxed out your mortgage you can't just get the bank to give you another one because you just WANT one. if you can't afford it, you can't have it. I think there is a deep seated problem now with people thinking that they must always be allowed to have and do whatever they like and anyone who stops them or suggests they shouldn't do it for solid, practical reasons, like existing obligations, is just being mean, unfair or, of course, always, "bitter".