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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To bring up how unfair the 11+ is?

291 replies

Jaggerdagger · 05/02/2022 21:04

I live in a notorious grammar school area in the south east (I'm sure you can guess which one!).

Reasons why I dislike the 11+:

  1. Tutoring is an unfair advantage and can only be accessed for those that can afford it. How can the 11+ be accurately assessed if the majority are tutored and only a handful manage to pass the test without additional support?
  2. If a child is tutored just to pass a test, it doesn't necessary mean that they will thrive in a grammar school. I'm a teacher and I've seen lots of pupils not coping well in the high pressured environment.
  3. It's divisive and can make those children that don't get in feel that they are inferior. Feeling like a failure age 11 for something that could be totally avoidable if this system wasn't in place seems terribly sad to me.
  4. Comprehensive schools in the area suffer in various ways because of grammar schools. For instance, more private schools are opened in the area due to parents wanting to pay for better facilities for their children that didn't get into grammar school.

I'm sure this has been discussed before on here but I think it's worth bringing it up once more for debate.

Aibu to think that this is an archaic and unfit system that should be either be abolished or drastically changed?

OP posts:
Andante57 · 06/02/2022 22:02

The school she's going to is the best in the city - what else can you do

Harbourlane if you disapprove of grammar schools then don’t send your dc to one. Send her to the comprehensive school.

harbourlane · 06/02/2022 22:45

@interferingma I'm well aware that the comps are mediocre because of the grammar, that's obvious.

As I said I don't agree with the system. But the system exists, and so I'm not going to deny my child the best education in order to make a moral stand.

Peregrina · 06/02/2022 22:57

It only seems to be Mumsnet that refers to Secondary Moderns as Comprehensives. You would never think either that there are only 160 or so in the country.

Peregrina · 06/02/2022 23:05

160 Grammars, that is, and a greater proportion of Sec Mods in Grammar Counties - which you would expect, if the Grammars only take 1/4 of the cohort.

thing47 · 06/02/2022 23:23

@Peregrina

It only seems to be Mumsnet that refers to Secondary Moderns as Comprehensives. You would never think either that there are only 160 or so in the country.
Absolutely. If you live in an area with a number of grammar schools, the other schools on offer are NOT comprehensives, they are secondary moderns. You don't hear that term used much these days because it's considered pejorative – they are called Upper Schools or High Schools – but secondary moderns are what they are.
Dixiechickonhols · 06/02/2022 23:30

It’s only true in full grammar area. One grammar in area doesn’t make all the rest mediocre or secondary moderns. In my area there’s only 1 grammar. It has intake of 150. Very large catchment only 100 places filled from catchment. The 3 nearest comprehensives all have excellent results - 2 are outstanding, one good. Grammar in area attracts involved parents who prioritise education which then benefits all local schools. So many New build estates here to accommodate families moving in.
The schools in non grammar area 8 miles away are poor/underperforming in contrast despite huge sums being spent (superschools project) I used to live in that area and from junior age ‘what are you going to do’ is main topic of conversation - find religion to get in out of town c of e, catholic, move across border to grammar area or tutor for grammar ooc but need child to be scoring 90% plus.

thing47 · 06/02/2022 23:39

Which is why I said 'in an area with a number of grammar schools'!
Where I live the grammar schools are larger than some of the alternatives.

SynchOrSwim · 07/02/2022 07:42

@Andante57

The school she's going to is the best in the city - what else can you do

Harbourlane if you disapprove of grammar schools then don’t send your dc to one. Send her to the comprehensive school.

Where I live there are no comprehensive schools as the grammars take 25-30% and even take a fair few who don't pass the 11+ through headteacher assessment.

Looking at catchment areas my daughter will have the choice of one school where 95% of students get a 5
5 or above in Maths and English GCSE and a school where 10% do. I can't imagine many mumsnetters being ok with the second option.

Peregrina · 07/02/2022 10:15

And SynchOrSwim's post is why the Sed Mod system was deeply unpopular before most authorities phased them out. Although in those days the measure was O levels, or even getting the chance to take them. Notwithstanding that, there were some good Sec Mods.

It seems a totally sterile argument to me to want to re-introduce a system which by the late sixties/early seventies was seen to be second rate for most children.We need some fresh thinking as to what is needed for the 21st century.

In genuine comprehensive areas, I don't think parents are clamouring for grammars, they want a good school for their children, as above.

MrsBaublesDylan · 07/02/2022 11:10

It isn't only the grammar system which promotes educational inequality.

Children in areas without grammar schools experience postcode inequality.

My sister lives 20 minutes from me in an area which is populated with Doctors, lawyers and bankers. Her children had the choice of two outstanding secondaries within catchment. She also pays for tutors for her dc.

I live in an area which has lots of people on benefits or in very low paid employment. DS secondary within catchment 'Needs improvement'. We can't afford tutors.

My ds is no less clever than his cousins, but it's not equality is it?

Peregrina · 07/02/2022 13:34

I am not sure what the solution is. I think in market towns with mixed catchments and no real extremes of wealth comprehensives are usually good. In cities where there are very poor areas adjacent to wealthy ones where the catchments become very stratified then it's easy to see how some become sink schools and some get the children with committed parents.

I wonder if the grammar schools should be more strict about asking children to leave if they are not up to standard after the first year? I know my old grammar school did that. It bucked up the lazy ones, and despatched those who really couldn't keep up. Such a policy might stop some of the tutoring going on.

Cutesbabasmummy · 07/02/2022 16:23

My sister in law feels the same as you Op. Didn't stop her getting a tutor for her eldest and appealing when he didn't get in. She managed to get him in. I'll be getting a tutor for my son in a few years and hoping to goodness that he will get a scholarship and a bursary to an independent school.

DdraigGoch · 08/02/2022 00:43

The comps are mediocre because of the grammar. Can't you see that?

So what's the excuse of the mediocre comps which aren't in selective areas?

Sure, you take out the top set it will make the school's aggregate grade score look bad, but would Johnny actually perform any worse as an individual? Individual performance (in relation to one's potential) is surely what counts, not some pretty meaningless figures.

Done right, Secondary Moderns could help struggling pupils who would otherwise get lost as teachers struggle to differentiate among a wide range of abilities.

Lollipity · 08/02/2022 03:54

Whether we should have grammar schools or not is a complex subject, with lots of competing arguments.

I think they do help bright children from ordinary backgrounds access a good education that their parents couldn't otherwise afford. My friendship group my grammar were predominantly from working-class backgrounds (not free school meals, but not professional/upper MC backgrounds either).

If parents are motivated and able, they can tutor them through. I'm not sure why there is such an outcry about paid tutoring, when you can just buy the workbooks, take the answers out, give them to your child to do, and then go through the answers together. I couldn't afford tutoring as a single parent albeit one working full-time and did this, and my child qualified for grammar.

As someone mentioned in a comment above, there is always some type of selection. If not by ability through a grammar system, then by money through more expensive housing in MC catchment areas, or through jumping through religious hoops.

However, the secondary modern/upper schools do not get the "parity of esteem" that was once hoped for. Most staff and many students work exceptionally hard in these institutions, and face greater barriers. Grammar schools find it easier to recruit due to the high status afforded to them by the excellent grades they achieve through creaming off the academically most able.

Pupils can feel like they are failures before they've started year 7 and can internalize this as their "worth". However - most state primaries send very few children to grammar schools, so maybe this impact is limited.

I also see more mental health issues at girls' GSs, more anxiety over how they present to others and their identities, although this is also anecdotal.

interferingma · 08/02/2022 08:10

@DdraigGoch

The comps are mediocre because of the grammar. Can't you see that?

So what's the excuse of the mediocre comps which aren't in selective areas?

Sure, you take out the top set it will make the school's aggregate grade score look bad, but would Johnny actually perform any worse as an individual? Individual performance (in relation to one's potential) is surely what counts, not some pretty meaningless figures.

Done right, Secondary Moderns could help struggling pupils who would otherwise get lost as teachers struggle to differentiate among a wide range of abilities.

Gosh where to start? Underfunding? Low parental expectations because it's an area where the tradition of getting on isn't strong? Deprivation so that frankly families see university as just another debt? I'm sure teachers could wade in with more. I'm just a parent whose children went to a mediocre comp outside a grammar area but whose children managed to do ok.
Hoppinggreen · 08/02/2022 08:38

@DdraigGoch

The comps are mediocre because of the grammar. Can't you see that?

So what's the excuse of the mediocre comps which aren't in selective areas?

Sure, you take out the top set it will make the school's aggregate grade score look bad, but would Johnny actually perform any worse as an individual? Individual performance (in relation to one's potential) is surely what counts, not some pretty meaningless figures.

Done right, Secondary Moderns could help struggling pupils who would otherwise get lost as teachers struggle to differentiate among a wide range of abilities.

I agree We aren’t really in a Grammar area. There are 2 Grammars in the next town (different LEA) that Dc in our town can apply for but many parents don’t even know about them and the majority of pupils there are from the immediate area - especially since proximity pushes you further up the ranking So this, coupled with some reasonably affluent areas here should mean we have good State Comps shouldn’t it? Well one is ok but the other 2 closest are awful
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