To not know what to do about DD

[Lollipop858]

DD very likely has ADHd it’s been confirmed by a child psychiatrist but not formally diagnosed until she sees the specialist team which should be any week now. DD is 13. She has always been working very much behind her peers since primary school even with extra tuition, but she’s never caught up. I already had issues with her behaviour and other things, however during the homeschool period of covid it really reinforced how much she is behind and how much she struggles so I contacted the Senco.

Just before summer term last year she had an Educational Psychologist assessment and scored very low on almost everything so there is clearly some form of learning difficulties/disability too. School have been far from helpful and the strategies they’ve put in place just aren’t enough - there isn’t much more support they can give, it’s clear she needs an SEN setting. I’m in the process of an ECHP, but in the meantime school is becoming increasingly difficult, she’s always thrown out of lessons, becomes very angry at the perceived injustice of it all, and is then rude and defiant. School remove her from lessons and give her detentions and reports - all of which have no effect whatsoever. She thinks her teachers all hate her.

My issue is.. do I also discipline her outside of school for stuff that happens inside school? I have been hesitant to go down this route because I know how much she struggles at school, as the work gets harder she can’t keep up with her peers and I feel like her self esteem around school is so low that she’s stopped even bothering. She goes into lessons and has no idea what’s going on, she’s supposed to be set highly differentiated work, but I don’t think this is enough due to her poor working memory, it was observed she can’t retain information and I’m sympathetic to the teachers because they have classes of 30 or more to try and educate also. She sees a psychologist once a week too. I’m just stuck at where to go from here, her mainstream school is huge with thousands of pupils on roll, I know it’s not the right place for her, do I remove her from school and homeschool her? The issue with that is I also have ADHD and I’m absolutely dire at maths, so it’s going to be so difficult for both of us and I’m trying to make home life as relaxed and calm as possible as the issues I was having at home are slowly being resolved one by one (by no means perfect).

Any advice is hugely appreciated

I have no words of advice but just wanted to say I think you are doing the best you can and hopefully someone will be along to offer some pearls of wisdom soon.

I'm absolutely no expert but it sounds like she needs to find something that she loves - and ideally something she's fairly good at - and be allowed to put lots of energy into that outside of school. Feeling like you're the worst at everything must be exhausting, and honestly what impetus is there to try if you know you're never going to be as good as everyone else? I think I would have a frank conversation with her about needing to get through school, tick the box of having the bare minimum GCSEs that she needs, and then focus on what exciting options exist for her beyond academia.

Please don’t punish her out of school as well. We moved Ds from an academy school where he supposedly had senco support but was also constantly in detention for the same issues he needed support with. He was depressed, anxious and giving up. He’s now at a part online private school that is supportive and positive about him, has been diagnosed with autism and is slowly rebuilding his confidence and self esteem as his work comes on in leaps. It wasn’t easy to organise and we are very lucky to have the resources to allow it.

Going through similar - but I don't think as extreme with dd12. She's yr8.

Popr working memory is also a key indicator for dyslexia. Has the Ed Psych suggested this?

School should absolutely be working with her - not kicking her out if lessons every 5 minutes because she is so far behind she doesn't understand.

Given that you are going to have to seek specialist provision for her is there anyway at school that she can be extracted from lessons and given some specialist support? With aN Ed Psyc report like that she will (should) be on the SEN register. Which means she should have a plan for what her education should look like - what her key aims are etc. She should also have a profile that all her teachers should be aware of. This will contain things like the working memory issues - and what she needs to support this - more time? Someone else to write for her? Printed sheets? Etc.

It sounds as though you are new to this - and SEN provision is a big bad world. Get yourself over to the SEN boards, and also contact your local sendiass as they will be able to explain more having sight of your dds specific profile and know what she should be entitled to.

It is likely having just received the diagnosis her head is in an absolute spin. My dd said after her assessments "It's like (EP) knows me... and I only met them today. How do they know all this about me but my teachers don't?" She is really struggling with it all - and at the same time desperately doesn't want to be different and wants to fit in with her peers.

Good luck OP. You are on a path ... its a long journey. But you will get there. The fact that you have a similar diagnosis means that you will k ow some of where she is at and remember you know your daughter!!

And no - don't punish her out of school. Home is her safe place. Keep it that way.

Please don’t punish her for things done at school. I would however talk to her in quiet and calm moments about how to approach things at school and talk to people.

My dd is 12 and has autism and adhd. She works hard but her working memory is poor and she finds it difficult. She’s gone from a mainstream primary into a Sen school which we think is better for her. Not perfect but better than the local massive academy high school who all but told us they didn’t want her.

Based on what you've said I would think taking her out and homeschooling for a while would be the best option. But I don't know how this would effect support/SEN school places etc., you'd need to make sure you weren't shooting yourself in the foot by taking her out. Maybe looking for an alternative school would help?

I definitely wouldn't punish her further though.

I'd also advise not taking her off role and homeschooling her. That will remove any responsibility the local authority has to educate her.

If you are just looking at an ehcp you are likely 12 months down the line before she will be offered any alternative provision. Until then try and find a way to keep her safe in school. Even if that is not attending every lesson. All of that is evidence towards your goal!

My DS has been diagnosed with ADHD and more recently ASD, school days sounded very similar, in the early days of high school we were punishing but once it became apparent that he had additional needs and just wasn't coping we stopped. We only punished for things that were within his limits and control, this wasn't very much tbf, this gave him a safe place to come home to (we still had rules and punishments but not linked to school issues).
He has now moved to college for year 10&11, they seem to have a much better handle on his problems and are offering much more support. Check out your local college incase they offer a 14+ provision.

@Lollipop858

DD very likely has ADHd it’s been confirmed by a child psychiatrist but not formally diagnosed until she sees the specialist team which should be any week now. DD is 13. She has always been working very much behind her peers since primary school even with extra tuition, but she’s never caught up. I already had issues with her behaviour and other things, however during the homeschool period of covid it really reinforced how much she is behind and how much she struggles so I contacted the Senco.

Just before summer term last year she had an Educational Psychologist assessment and scored very low on almost everything so there is clearly some form of learning difficulties/disability too. School have been far from helpful and the strategies they’ve put in place just aren’t enough - there isn’t much more support they can give, it’s clear she needs an SEN setting. I’m in the process of an ECHP, but in the meantime school is becoming increasingly difficult, she’s always thrown out of lessons, becomes very angry at the perceived injustice of it all, and is then rude and defiant. School remove her from lessons and give her detentions and reports - all of which have no effect whatsoever. She thinks her teachers all hate her.

My issue is.. do I also discipline her outside of school for stuff that happens inside school? I have been hesitant to go down this route because I know how much she struggles at school, as the work gets harder she can’t keep up with her peers and I feel like her self esteem around school is so low that she’s stopped even bothering. She goes into lessons and has no idea what’s going on, she’s supposed to be set highly differentiated work, but I don’t think this is enough due to her poor working memory, it was observed she can’t retain information and I’m sympathetic to the teachers because they have classes of 30 or more to try and educate also. She sees a psychologist once a week too. I’m just stuck at where to go from here, her mainstream school is huge with thousands of pupils on roll, I know it’s not the right place for her, do I remove her from school and homeschool her? The issue with that is I also have ADHD and I’m absolutely dire at maths, so it’s going to be so difficult for both of us and I’m trying to make home life as relaxed and calm as possible as the issues I was having at home are slowly being resolved one by one (by no means perfect).

Any advice is hugely appreciated

This isn't a discipline issue from what you say but a ND/SEN issue so no I wouldn't punish her for something she can't help. And why on earth do the school think that is appropriate? And even if they don't understand that why keep on punishing her when it is clearly not working. Poor DD - she needs support and understanding not punishment.

Poor DD - she needs support and understanding not punishment.

^^ This.

Where are you in the EHCP process? Are the LA sticking to the timescales?

If in the meantime DD cannot manage school because of her SEN the LA should make alternative arrangements under s.19 of the Education Act 1996.

Don’t deregister, as others have posted, the LA will say you are making suitable alternative arrangements and they are relieved of their duties if you EHE. Parents often find it easier to get support when on a school’s roll. If you EHE it is too easy for others to brush DD’s needs under the carpet.

Thank you everyone for your advice. It’s good to know I wasn’t in the wrong for not disciplining school stuff at home, I always talk to her about it and find out what’s going on and have a chat and think about other ways of handling it, but nothing more.

It does seem a lot of the teachers are very much against her behaviours due to the ADHD like not being able to focus and not being able to sit still, talking, tapping pens - you get the idea, they ask her to stop, she can’t stop and then an argument happens because she really doesn’t like any perceived injustice.

I definitely won’t remove her from school roll, I think I need to get pushy with school about more support for her, out of subjects that aren’t physical like PE dance drama or creative like art and DT. She struggles in all other subjects and this is where the problems start, English although very behind she doesn’t seem to get into any issues with the teacher and I assume it’s because that particular teacher seems to understand her needs well if that makes sense?

I do sometimes wonder if some of the staff still believe ADHD is a myth used for naughty kids - it’s certainly how it feels.

She has a personalised plan with strategies and information about her needs that was passed onto all of her teachers, but it’s evidently not working.

Don't punish at home for things that happen in school. As other poster said, try and find something that she loves (art, music, sport, drama) and channel that.

Please don't punish her at home, my 7 year old is the same (he has Asd) and I keep school and home separate.
If he has already been punished at school I will not punish him at home.
And I agree with finding her something she loves doing.
I really know how difficult it is and I hope your dd gets the help and support she deserves

I have a 15yo with all the same challenges as your daughter, though I guess mine is rather lower-achieving. She's home educated, and it has been the making of her. Her self esteem is high and she learns about things which interest her.

My dd is working at a different level from her age peers, but she is hardly aware of that. She doesn't spend her days floundering because she's being given work which is too difficult, or being given special easier differentiated work which serves as a daily reminder that she can't do what the other kids in the class can do. There are no meetings in which people discuss how far "behind" she is and and whether she can "catch up" if she works harder. (She isn't "behind". Learning isn't a race. She's learning what's right for her.) Her friends are of all ages, so she doesn't feel like the odd one out if she doesn't grasp teenage social cues. She volunteers at a forest school for under-10s, where she feels herself to be grown-up and capable, trusted and respected.

I agree with PPs who have mentioned the value to a teen of finding something she loves, which she can spend time on, which she might be able to get good at. It has to be said that that's far easier to do when you have time on your hands. Home education is more efficient than school because everything is one to one and at the right level for the individual, plus it cuts out all the overheads of travelling to school, moving between classes, taking registers, waiting for teachers to sort out disciplinary issues, queueing up for lunch... At home, even if you choose to do formal school-style lessons (we don't), you could cover it all in just a few hours a day. That leaves vast swathes of time for drawing, training pets, making a DIY skateboard, or doing sports. I was nervous about putting power tools into the hands of my dyspraxic kid, but after a lot of practice she is getting to grips with woodworking. The use of a tape measure is still quite a mystery, but she'll get there one day. There's no hurry.

I would strongly encourage you to look into the option of home ed. Come over to the home ed board if you want to hear more about other people's experiences. You could go meet some local home ed families for a chat, to see what it is like for them and what social and academic opportunities are available in your area.

Your reluctance to leave the system makes sense. It's galling to let the LA "get away with" not supporting your child after she's been let down at school for so long already. They shouldn't be off the hook. If you were being bullied in the workplace, you might well complain if you thought it would make a difference and if you wanted to stay. But what if you believed it would be a long uphill struggle and your daily life wouldn't improve at that company anyway - what then? Wouldn't you consider just walking away instead, letting your employer get away with having bullied you, and prioritising your own happiness by going elsewhere? You shouldn't have to leave, but sometimes leaving is the best choice.

I wouldn't have sanctions at home unless for serious incidents such as assaulting someone.

I would keep fighting the school - their behaviour management is not helping her and they need to try other approaches e.g. mentoring, support.