To think that whilst maternity & paternity leave is so crap women don’t have choice?

[guardiansofthegalaxychocs]

Read this very upbeat article in the guardian that suggests that it should be celebrated that more women are choosing to be child free. I have absolutely no issue with women choosing to be child free…. But I really struggle with the idea that women can truly have a choice whilst the cost of living is so insanely high, neither paid breaks (maternity, paternity etc) nor subsidised childcare are remotely adequate. We also know that high numbers of women experience terrible discrimination in the workplace.

This chirpy girl power article feels like a sort throwback to of feminism, which did us no good at all.

What we need is longer and better paid parental leave and then after that better and more subsidised childcare including relatives being able to get subsidies.

Then we can truly celebrate that women have choice.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/30/if-youre-childless-at-30-and-that-is-your-choice-isnt-that-something-we-should-applaud?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3NjWennDmPh-zgXOWGnOdWklLz0V6Qvhic23dZzah6laqbUKeELvDpWVg#Echobox=1643540688

We’re one of only two OECD countries where more than 50% of the cost of early years care comes directly from parents’ pockets - we are the outliers, not the other way around

I am not sure we're wrong in this case though. The world is overpopulated and we do not need to encourage people to have more children.

I think we should provide maternity pay and generously subsidised childcare for the first child (or children, if multiple birth) and after that you pay for your own. People were outraged at the restriction of child benefit to two children but in my view it was 100% the right thing to do.

We do not need people to have big families just because we are worried who will wipe our bottoms when we are old.

I don't understand how anyone under 30 who doesn't own a house and doesn't have help from parents could afford children. We could be kicked out of our rental with 2 months notice so it would be impossible to have children and hope they make friends, stay in the same school etc. And it would slow our saving down more, not that that is keeping up with house prices anyway. I just don't think it's something most working young people can afford.

I'm Childfree by choice but I agree with the OP that some women are childfree because they don't see children as affordable. An ex colleague left her job as a solicitor at a law firm for a job at the council. She's only gone there for the maternity benefits and wouldn't have chosen to work for them otherwise.

@Chasingaftermidnight

I have a child and work full time, so I know the cost of childcare but I honestly don't see why it should be subsidised more than it is. Who is going to pay for this extra subsidy from the government?

For God’s sake, why do people act like subsidised childcare is some wild Marxist scheme from the USSR? We’re one of only two OECD countries where more than 50% of the cost of early years care comes directly from parents’ pockets - we are the outliers, not the other way around. And the result is a system that’s not only unaffordable for many parents, it also sees childcare workers (who are predominantly female) struggling by on less than the living wage.

The more people are in work, the more tax revenues the government receives.

Our childcare is subsidised already, how much more do people want? Maybe we need to look at the ridiculously high fees that private nurseries charge, should this be capped? The nursery near me charges £50 per day, the parents still have to pay when its a Bank Holiday, this is not passed onto the staff, its part of their annual leave. The owner of the nursery who "opened it so everyone had access to decent childcare" lives in a mansion and drives a Ferrari. How many nurseries are there like this? I get there are a business but maybe they need to look at what they charge.

It's a good thing that women have more independence & a natural consequence of that is declining birth rates. However I do think we have got to a point where having dc is finically not sustainable for many which isn't a good thing.

Plus we have an ageing population which the governments are ignoring so it's going to be a challenge with the shifting demographic.

What we need is longer and better paid parental leave and then after that better and more subsidised childcare including relatives being able to get subsidies.

Who is going to pay for all this?

"The older population in the UK is projected to grow, with people aged 65 and over making up 24% of the population by 2043 (17.4 million people)."

who do you think is going to pay for that?

The idea that we don't need children & should support young families is really odd imo.

You can't win, can you.

Complain about the price of child care - well why did you have children if you can't afford them?

Make sure you are established enough in your career so you can afford them - why are you having children so late, all those old mothers with fertility and health issues, drain on the system..

There are two ways of boosting a country’s birth rate. The first is incentivising women to have children via family friendly policies such as maternity and paternity leave and subsidised childcare. The Scandinavian countries, and in particular Sweden, pursued this strategy and it did produce results. The second way is encouraging immigration, which is a much quicker fix. The UK has pursued the latter strategy.

But we haven't boosted our birth rate. It's 1.6 I believe

And childless by 30 was the norm amongst all the people I worked with and that was in 2007! My DH and I were taking about this yesterday and mostly it is women 37+ who have had children where he works, nobody at all in the 25- 35 bracket!

Our childcare is subsidised already, how much more do people want?

So much that women are not forced to stay home just because their salary would not cover childcare.

For God’s sake, why do people act like subsidised childcare is some wild Marxist scheme from the USSR? We’re one of only two OECD countries where more than 50% of the cost of early years care comes directly from parents’ pockets - we are the outliers, not the other way around. And the result is a system that’s not only unaffordable for many parents, it also sees childcare workers (who are predominantly female) struggling by on less than the living wage.

Completely agree & am surprised there is so much resistance to it.

Actually not mostly, 'all' women have been 37+, men on paternity leave older so 40+.

The world is overpopulated and we do not need to encourage people to have more children.

The western world is overpopulated by people living longer. How do you suggest a population functions with a high majority of older people?

Our childcare is subsidised already, how much more do people want?

😆

I kind of agree with the OP. I’m childfree by choice- because it was a crap choice. Having children would have meant either sacrificing my financial independence, or any semblance of work/life balance, and quite possibly both. Not a choice I was prepared to make. Unless something changes, more and more women will arrive at the same conclusion, and ultimately I think that will cost society more than the individual women.

When l had my children there was no maternity leave at all. I had to leave my job both times. That was what happened then. Women going off on their maternity leave later on found it very difficult to believe. At least employment is safe now.

Unless something changes, more and more women will arrive at the same conclusion, and ultimately I think that will cost society more than the individual women.

agree

"Earlier in January, the ONS forecast that the natural population in the UK would begin to decline by the middle of the decade. It estimated that by 2045 the number of people aged 85 and over would nearly double to 3.1m — 4.3 per cent of the population — while the number of people of pensionable age would reach more than 15m."

Don't people see the challenges of the above?

At least employment is safe now.

really?

I have amazing parental leave entitlements through my employer. I could’ve had a year with 14 weeks full pay and then the rest of the year at 60% then the right to return part time. And it would’ve all counted towards my long service (3 months leave after 10 years). If the Pope knew what I was missing out on maybe he’d support me having a year at home raising kittens.

I never met anyone suitable. No one I knew was settling down until their mid thirties when suddenly people were marrying. Guys our age who had been adamant they weren’t settling down somehow married younger women when we weren’t looking. Dating was a nightmare. Did loads of activities for my own enjoyment but never met anyone that way either. Gave up on the whole thing.

Reading MN I’m glad I didn’t settle for “he’s a great dad (but a total arsehole really”) but I’ve totally wasted the fantastic maternity benefits I have. Money has nothing to do with why I don’t have kids, nor for my slightly younger colleagues (who also can’t meet anyone decent but have awesome benefits).

@Goldenbear same for me (I was also 30 in 2007). I knew only one person who’d had a baby (at 21) and she was basically a teenage mother from everyone else’s perspective.

DHs company introduced 3 months paid paternity leave a few yrs ago which I think is great. We already had ours though.

*"The older population in the UK is projected to grow, with people aged 65 and over making up 24% of the population by 2043 (17.4 million people)."

who do you think is going to pay for that? *

The problem is, there is a constant fear that pension age will rise, pension entitlement will be slashed and the children of today won't be supporting us. So people feel aggrieved at paying for children they've chosen not to have. Of course, if we don't pay for them it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. It's all such a mess.

My pension age has raised & I don't expect to see my state pension but I think children should be supported & don't begrudge people having more dc then me.

@DixonD

We do get a very long maternity leave here. I was off work for 14 months. How long do you want!?

I took six months - I couldn't afford to be off longer as the (marginally) higher earner. Actually making it affordable for women to have the full time allowed off - if they choose to - might help.

Not trying for a second child was a result of birth trauma that no professional I spoke to was interested in alongside financial concerns.

@CoalCraft

People are misreading the OP. It's not saying that everyone should/would want to have children even under ideal conditions. It's saying that there really isn't a choice for conscientious would-be parents who would like children but feel that they wouldn't be able to provide for them due to poor social provision. That some people do have children in far less than ideal situations is irrelevant.

I don’t think people are misreading the OP. If people are ambivalent there will always be a reason, it could be finances, it could be climate change, it could be genetics, a history of women in their family dying early and leaving young children without a mother, it could be not wanting to give up a lifestyle. All of those are perfectly acceptable reasons to be ambivalent about children. Or not have children. Usually, being ambivalent about children isn’t just one reason either, it’s a usually several factors and finances is one element.

I was on the fence about kids and leaning towards not having them. There were a million reasons not to have kids, to delay having kids and finances were one. One day I fell off the fence and landed on the I wanted kids side. Finances were no longer a reason to override my feelings-. I hadn’t improved my situation, if anything I’d increased my outgoings and not increased my income. It didn’t matter I wanted kids and so I’m finding a way to make SMP work and I’ll find a way to make childcare work.

I think SMP should be increased and a more standard level of maternity and paternity pay applied across the board. As generally lower paid jobs come with statutory maternity/paternity pay and people in these positions might not be able to save to cover the loss of income the same.