Pedantic grammar question

[RaininSummer]

Not trying to be a pedantic old fart, but recently I am regularly reading what to me is a jarring use of words/tense and I don't know where it has sprung from.

Examples are phrases such as, 'the baby needs fed' or 'the door wants painted'. I don't understand when or why people have stopped saying, 'the baby needs feeding' or the 'baby needed to be fed'.

Small issue I guess but I feel that I need to know because as part of my job I help young people write job applications etc and want to keep up with the lingo. I don't think it's a common construction around me at present but see it frequently here.

Can anybody explain please?

Is it local dialect being used ?

The baby needs fed is normal in Scotland.

The baby needs feeding is really weird to me.

It’s partly poor grammar, partly local and regional dialect

In the case of poor grammar, it’s used and then reused and reused within those same social circles to the point where I think it’s absorbed as being correct. I also think some people just don’t care or aren’t educated on correct grammar so sentences end up being slightly rehashed.

There are plenty of cases on MN where people sneer at poor grammar / Americanisms and then just to be told that’s a regional dialect thing. Ie, use of “mom” which I think is a midlands thing.

I’m also a grammar pedant, but for me this is a regional variation - my relatives and friends in the north of England have used that construction as long as I can remember.

Do you know about the pedant's topic? This is often comes up there and there are lots of posters who know all the right way to explain this. Despite it being a regular question on here I can't remember all the linguistic background

Local dialect. Where I'm from, it's "the baby needs to be fed", and both "needs fed" and "needs feeding" wouldn't really be used at all.

Where I live now it's "needs fed". I admit it did grate at first, but I've relaxed in my old age and now I really enjoy regional variations in language both in real life and on here.

I would assume it was local dialect.

What I would like to know is do people write the way they speak? I'm in Yorkshire and a lot of local people say "you was" instead of "you were", but would they write this in an English exam or an email?

Thank you. I have only seen it on Mumsnet and only quite recently but maybe I am reading a lot of posts from people using that dialect then. I have heard it only ever in writing which is possibly why it is jumping out of the page at me.

Mumsnet has its own grammar. I see the same mistakes so many times, that I question if it's me that's wrong.

People write informally on here, as they should, so you'll see more regional variations and also more slams, typos and errors, than you would in a book or newspaper.

@RaininSummer

Thank you. I have only seen it on Mumsnet and only quite recently but maybe I am reading a lot of posts from people using that dialect then. I have heard it only ever in writing which is possibly why it is jumping out of the page at me.

There's a disproportionate amount of Scottish people on Mumsnet.

Where I live people write the way they speak all the time in local Facebook groups.

For example "Is there any jobs in xxx or yyyy for a 15 year old"

@RaininSummer
If you Google Pittsburgh English all will be explained

@Tulipomania

Where I live people write the way they speak all the time in local Facebook groups.

For example "Is there any jobs in xxx or yyyy for a 15 year old"

This is a cross over of regional dialect and education through, as no one highly educated would ask for a job through Facebook.

It's how people talk where I'm from too.
"Me and Sam went to the pictures"
"I'm sat there".

Incorrect grammar is the norm 😬

Where I live people write the way they speak all the time in local Facebook groups.

Yes they do. "Was you at school with me?" "You was in the pub last night" etc.
I have spent many years copy writing and proof reading, so these do irritate me. They shouldn't but they do. I never say anything though. That would be rude.

"Need, want, or like + past participle":[6][7][58] Examples of this include "The car needs washed", "The cat wants petted", and "Babies like cuddled". More common constructions are "The grass needs cutting" or "The grass needs to be cut" or "Babies like cuddling" or "Babies like to be cuddled"; "The car needs washing" or "The car needs to be washed"; and "The cat wants petting" or "The cat wants to be petted." Found predominantly in the North Midland region, this is especially common in southwestern Pennsylvania (Murray, Frazer and Simon 1996; Murray and Simon 1999; Murray and Simon 2002). Need + past participle is the most common construction, followed by want + past participle, and then like + past participle. The forms are "implicationally related" to one another (Murray and Simon 2002). This means the existence of a less common construction from the list in a given location entails the existence of the more common ones there, but not vice versa. The constructions "like + past participle" and "need + past participle" are Scots-Irish (Murray, Frazer, and Simon 1996; Murray and Simon 1999; Montgomery 2001; Murray and Simon 2002). While Adams[57] argues that "want + past participle" could be from Scots-Irish or German, it seems likely that this construction is Scots-Irish, as Murray and Simon (1999 and 2002) claim. like and need + past participle are Scots-Irish, the distributions of all three constructions are implicationally related, the area where they are predominantly found is most heavily influenced by Scots-Irish, and a related construction, "want + directional adverb", as in "The cat wants out", is Scots-Irish.[29][53]

Just in case it's helpful: 'ie' (or 'i.e.') stands for 'that is' and is used to specify or clarify the particular thing under discussion. An example of the thing under discussion could be introduced with 'eg' (or 'e.g.'). For example:

'UK currency, i.e. the pound sterling, has risen'.
'Many countries, e.g. USA, Canada and Australia, have the dollar as the name of their currency.'

You can say “the baby needs feeding” or “the baby needs to be fed” in SE, so it appears to be an informal omission of the infinitive “to be” - either dialectal or as part of an online sociolect. As long as people know that the non-standard variety is acceptable in informal discourse, but the SE version should be used in academic writing/job interviews etc, then there shouldn’t be an issue.

no one highly educated would ask for a job through Facebook.

Fair point.

I never say anything though. That would be rude.

Nor do I. Other people do though sometimes. Another recent post asked for recommendations for a "plummer" which led to a couple of jokes about the Sound of Music which probably went way over most people's heads.

I’d read those examples as local dialect usages, @RaininSummer

If you’re working with/ teaching young people, it’s worth working through with them that they also need to be able to use standard English when appropriate - in formal situations such as a education, a job interview, and the like.

It’s called “code switching.” We all do it to a greater or lesser extent.

There’s nowt wrong with it - but it’s good to know one is doing it, so one can be in control of ones communications.

Can you work with your young people on code switching and when they might want to think about it?

Can anyone give me sample sentences please of when you write parents, parent's or parents' ... same with childrens, children's or childrens'... thank you!

You can say 1)the baby needs feeding, because you can use an -ing verb after need. This produces a similar effect to 2) the passive voice: the baby needs to be fed. Active: you need to feed the baby places the emphasis on YOU, not the baby, and might sound too directive. 1) and 2) focus on the baby and its needs, not the person who needs to feed it.

A more formal example: The filter needs changing every three months / the filter needs to be changed every three months. Sounds OK as instructions.

However, if you said 2) the baby needs to be fed it would sound too formal because it's a bit of a mouthful. So the baby needs fed is a reduced form of the passive (see other reduced forms eg the message which I got yesterday -> the message I got yesterday).

Source: Carter & McCarthy, Cambridge Grammar of English.

Here are Tom's parents.

Tom's parents' car is very flash.

Tom's parent's late again. An odd construction as one would say Mrs/MrTucker.

Children is plural, so can's be childrens or childrens'.

Children's welfare is important.

Can't, not can's.