To buy a renovation project?

[torenoornottoreno]

I am looking for your advice on whether this is a good idea or bad idea, especially from those with experience.

The houses I’ve seen with gorgeous things in them are always done in renovations, where the person has got to put their stamp on it. I also think this is the best way to make money!

We live in a very desirable and expensive area in SE. We currently live in a lovely 3 bed semi, it’s just DH and me - we hope to have kids in a year or two. Our home was renovated by the previous owners and sold to us, they broke even and we have made a small fortune because of the pandemic etc.

We want to move for a number of reasons. We want a detached, bigger garden and a driveway. But that’s gold dust in our very small area (there’s cheaper in another part of town but we want to stay in the desired area). We’d be looking towards £1m at least for this.

A house has come on the market for £850k. It’s a 5 bed detached, lovely road, everything we want, perfect area. However; it is a family home where the children are probably in their 30s, mum has passed so dad needs to sell. They’ve not decorated it since 70s. But it’s well kept.

We’d want to knock down some walls to make it open plan for the kitchen area. The rest we would probably just slowly paint, redesign. The expensive areas would be kitchen + structural work and bathroom. Everything else is superficial. It’s entirely liveable.

Would you do this? We could currently afford the deposit, SDLT and fees with the equity in our house currently. But we wouldn’t have much for the renovation yet. We are approved for a mortgage on a house up to £1m so that’s not an issue.

Would you do it? I feel like it’s our only chance to get a house of this size!

YABU - bad idea
YANBU - do it

Do it. But whatever you budget to do the work, double that number. If the location is good, you will always get your money back. But just be realistic with the numbers.

[quote torenoornottoreno]@BreadInCaptivity this is helpful thank you.

I am going to check all wiring / heating etc on Saturday. It’s not listed and the only structural work is to make the kitchen open plan, I’d need an architect to view regarding the load bearing walls etc

My idea was that the kitchen would be done before I gave birth (or even got pregnant) then any other work is just small amounts. Windows etc look good and it has been upkept. It’s more the taste that’s 70s.[/quote]

You are welcome but I fear you're already falling into the "room at a time" trap.

It won't be a simple case of just doing the kitchen.

Do you need new windows? You don't want to buy them just for the kitchen (cheaper to buy all at once and no risk of not being able to match them in the future) as just one example.

Also unless you're very experienced you won't realistically be able to check the wiring etc.

You need a high end survey done by a charted surveyor. Do not scrimp on the survey. Please. You'll regret it. I paid £3k for my last survey and it was worth every single penny. Picked up issues re: drains, wiring, roof and damp that even doing this for the 4th time, DH and I did not spot.

You need to know EVERYTHING (major and minor) that needs addressing and you're not going to be able to do that by a quick visual check.

Also as I said below, once you know everything that needs to be tackled it's worth consulting with an experienced project manager to draw up an efficient schedule of works.

They can help you phase everything to your needs/budget and again this is a very good investment, especially for a first time renovator and is incredibly useful in managing all the subsequent trades you'll need to engage.

I'd only do it with experience and a rough idea of what to expect.

Not all renovation increases house piece

I do this as a full time job. Interior designer. We meet clients before they start any work.and we bring in other professionals as needed, so an architect to draw up existing floor plans that we import into CAD to show options for layouts for example with a kitchen knock thru / extension.

Once ideal layout is agreed ee book structural engineer. Then we put furniture layout on the scale plans in order to put the full lighting and electrical plan on top.

Architect produces building control plans, which together with SE calcs and our lighting and electrical plan with scope of works we can send out to builders to quote. Getting to 3 builders quotes can cost £5-6k but at the end of this stage you'll have 3 comparable building quotes and can put estimates on the cost of every single other item you need to buy (flooring, radiators, kitchen units, appliances, lights, switches and sockets etc)

I've had clients who get to this stage aha wait to save up / remortgage in order to do the full refurb that they want to do. Or to do the work in stages. Eithrr way, with detailed plans your budget is protected and the major thinking is done BEFORE any walls start to come down.

It's exciting stuff and to have the 5 bed family home of your dreams before you have kids is an amazing opportunity.

We’ve just bought a project house for the same reasons as you. It sounds like our house is in a similar state to the one you’re looking at - needs updating, but very much liveable.

We haven’t started any work yet but there’s one thing we (stupidly) hadn’t bargained for - now really isn’t the ideal time to be doing a renovation from a cost or time point of view because the cost of materials is sky high and there’s a labour shortage. Decent builders have waiting lists as long as your arm. Quotes are often only valid for a limited period because the cost of materials keeps inflating. And so on.

Do it and before you have children... but before you do any work, live in it for 6 months just as is as it will change (for the better) what you want to do and how.

Definitely renovate before baby. We are slowly doing our renovation and it would have been masses more stressful with a baby rather than school aged child. It’s worth it because we could afford a house on the best road in the area with a huge garden and great aspect etc. But project managing it all and trying to book in trades etc is a job in itself. The availability of a lot of trades is really low here at the moment and prices are skyrocketing so even if you have the money ready be prepared for delays simply as things get cancelled or you can’t find the person for the job. It really is worth learning some basic DIY and things like stripping wallpaper while dull can be quite therapeutic!!
On the other hand if you are someone that doesn’t like mess or uncertainty it’s probably not for you. We have lived in a semi renovated house for a couple of years now and while it is masses better than it was, the unfinished bits get on my nerves every day when I’m wfh. That said, ticking a task off the list or getting another room decorated is such a great feeling and sense of achievement!

When you work out your renovation costs be accurate with the costs ( people usually underestimate) and then add 20-30% minimum. You need a contingency for when things go wrong, go up in price etc..
especially for structural work check planning, check again, check structure, check again! Then try not to change your plan part way through, that costs money.
Think carefully if you can live with work people in your house day in day out, they’ll need a loo to use, there’ll be dust and mess.
The disruption with which rooms you can use can disruptive.
When you plan the time scale again be realistic and add 6 months.

Just some of the things I learnt over 10 years of doing this ( though we didn’t live in all of them)
Good luck. When it goes well ( and no reason it shouldn’t) it’s brilliant.

Do it, but don’t underestimate 1) the time it will take 2) the cost 3) the dust.

Working from home during a renovation would be very challenging.

I agree with a pp about not falling into the trap of doing one room at a time. Make a full list of everything that needs doing, and then speak to your builder about the most sensible order. You don’t want your lovely new kitchen to be ruined by builders stomping through it the following year on their way upstairs to do the bathroom above. Or the inevitable plumbing leaks coming through a newly painted ceiling below.

Start at the top, roof first (if it needs doing) then work your way down. This does mean doing bedrooms before kitchen, which seems arse about face when the kitchen is your priority, but the result is that the builders and mess work their way out of your house and you’re not ruining parts that are finished. It also means you have a nice room to retreat to on a night!

Don’t have a baby during a renovation though. That way lies madness!

It’s better if you don’t have to do it room by room but many need to do that for budget reasons. It’s not the end of the world. Personally I’d rather renovate as and when I’ve saved the money to do jobs than whack it onto the mortgage because over a 20 year period you will be paying double for that work, once you take interest into account.
Definitely budget for inflation though. Especially at present.

We've always done this and always made a good profit. I won't pay for a house that's already been renovated. We can do lots of the jobs ourselves now though which obviously keeps costs down.

We have DC now and always make sure to get their rooms sorted ASAP so they've a nice space to relax and then get the kitchen sorted - lucky enough to stay with family whilst the removal and fitting happens though.

@TiddleTaddleTat

It’s better if you don’t have to do it room by room but many need to do that for budget reasons. It’s not the end of the world. Personally I’d rather renovate as and when I’ve saved the money to do jobs than whack it onto the mortgage because over a 20 year period you will be paying double for that work, once you take interest into account. Definitely budget for inflation though. Especially at present.

I understand your point, but you also need to factor in that the room by room approach can also be significantly more costly than following a sensible phased plan based on addressing structural/whole house (wiring/heating/windows etc) issues first.

That's why it's worth investing in an expert to help you plan the works out and a comprehensive survey so you know exactly what you are dealing with.

I'm not suggesting you need to do everything immediately (though tbh that's always been my preference but we've always factored that into our overall budget when buying) but even with mortgage costs it can end up being more expensive to take a room based approach and don't underestimate how demoralising living in a half done house for years can be.

As a pp said - no point in having a nice kitchen if the roof is leaking or the wiring is likely to fry all your new appliances and the house is cold, damp and miserable because you've got single glazing and no loft insulation (and are paying £££ in utility bills).

I wonder whether the 'knock everything through even though it might ruin the character of an older property' trend has reached its peak and might be declining? I don't know, but building fads and fashions change quite quickly. Big open spaces can be very expensive to heat, and, as we all know, fuel costs are rising dramatically.

Obviously, your house, your taste (so long as the house is not listed or in a conservation area) but do you want to spend £100,000 plus on something that might be out of date by the time it has been finished?

As others have very wisely said, do the structural stuff first (roof, windows, wiring, heating, insulation, damp remediation, drains...). Compared with all that, decoration and even fitting a kitchen will be straightforward and easy.

I would echo BreadInCaptivity that the roof, windows, re-wiring, plumbing shouldn't be done piecemeal if you can help it. I would plan on moving out temporarily especially for re-wiring and re-plumbing (which almost certainly will need doing if it hasn't been updated since the 70's) and budget for this.

@BreadInCaptivity for sure, work top down and certainly do rewire, boiler etc first. But decoration can wait to be done as and when, since you need to clear the rooms, if you’re living in it it’s not usually practical to work on a large area of the house at once unless you have lots of spare bedrooms / bathrooms etc.

Gosh OP I didn't mean to sound discouraging. I apologise if I was! I was only intending to suggest that when remodelling a house, you look at practiclities first, and also at what might work long term rather than what is the current fashion.

Best of luck!

Gah! 'practicalities' !

We did it with toddlers. Everything needed doing. Live there for a bit to find out what you like/don't like.
I enjoyed it, the excitement and the challenge. Whatever you think your budget is treble it and don't be tempted to cut corners to speed it up.

Thank you everyone.

The whole modern fad thing @scottishnames I understand and is not what I’m doing. We currently live in a Victorian and it’s modern but has its character. No grey, all ceiling roses etc, just tastefully done. I love it. I would never want to live in a “new build” style house. So I want an open plan kitchen / living space with lots of light and a kitchen island. At the moment is a square type kitchen. I want to keep the separate lounge area (so two spaces) and all other rooms will remain the same but uplifted.

I may have exaggerated with the 70s thing, it looks like it’s been painted and redone to a plain and boring standard in 2007ish.

We are coming to the end of an almost 2 year renovation. We had our 3rd child during it. The older 2 were 3 & 5 when it started. In all honesty, the most stressful bit with the children has been trying to homeschool during various school closures while building works are going on…. Very stressful.

I think it’s important that you realise, that, even with the best will in the world, room by room isn’t always possible.

Just for eg: you need to rewire… also a good time to add additional sockets to rooms, as there are unlikely to be enough in any room for modern requirements. Sockets require walls to be tracked and floors to be lifted for wiring. So now your floors are up and the walls will need to be re plastered.

While the floors are up, you might as well sort out the plumbing. This is how things quickly snowball, and it becomes more expedient to do things on one go.

I found the kitchen the easiest part by far. Someone else deals with the vast majority of that and makes sure it’s fitted etc. it’s ALLLLLLLL the other stuff that’s a pain 😬

From my pictures and memory, the windows seem new. It’s just all old furniture and style but seems like it was probably decorated early 2000s. I’ll ask!

Go for it. But with eyes wide open. The cost of materials has gone bonkers post brexit I mean BONKERS

So at least double any quotes

Oh god it’s making me nervous. I keep thinking “am I ever going to be happy” and whether this is just like the next thing to keep my brain active when I have a lovely home. It’s just not right long term! Ahhh.

Mortgage man has got us an AIP if we want to offer. We need to port our mortgage too so I’m very grateful that I have literally the best mortgage broker ever.

Hi all, bit of an update
We looked round properly on Saturday. It is such a massive house and we met the owner. He came across as the type who is reluctantly moving due to “family pressure” he mentioned. So I don’t think we would be able to get away with a lower offer.

I don’t think it is worth £850k because of the extent of works needing doing. It is very old and hasn’t been refurbished in at least 15-20 years - maybe longer. But has been maintained iyswim.

So much potential but it would need you to change everything. Structurally we would only want to open up the kitchen/diner by knocking down a wall. Everything else would be replaster/ paint / new carpet etc. we would get rewiring and update the boiler.

We’ve estimated £100-150k of work. We are in a position to offer a max of £825k which we also think it’s worth. This would allow us to move with around £70k in savings to begin the renovations. It also means we could get a lower rate and port our mortgage!

OP, how large is the footprint of the house? Have you factored in stamp duty and moving costs?