Means testing State Pension

[CuriousMariette]

Do you think the time has come for this to be introduced? I don’t think the current system is sustainable as many people are living too long. I know it’s not fair and would be political suicide but Pensioner’s didn’t even suffer a 80% furlough during lockdowns. I say this from a place of having “paid in” as people say for 30 years plus already and would likely not receive a State Pension in this scenario.

& intergenerational inequality.

@SquidMonkey
Exactly it's very difficult to make things 'fair' even if you can define 'fair'.

Two couples both retired both own their own house.

Couple A, the woman never worked outside the house since she married. The man big earner retired at 55, excluding an afternoon a week.

Couple B Woman returned to work when LO started school, relying on family help for childcare, both of them then worked to state retirement 60 & 65. Both with small company pension but need state pension to make ends meet.

I should they both get pension or just one couple, and where do you draw the line?

@Blossomtoes

Yes, I think a young person’s life is more important than an 89 year old’s

You need to be really careful where you go with that @Fr0thandBubble. It’s a slippery slope. Once you start weighing the value of lives, where do you stop? When my parents were 89 their lives were of massive importance to me. Your child means nothing to me, they mean everything to you.

The NHS does this every single day already!

There are finite resources. We can't have everything. When NICE authorise new treatments they do a cost/ benefit analysis based on healthy expected life years and the difference the treatment will likely make to that.

It's naive in the extreme to pretend these judgements don't have to be made in a world without infinite resources. Yes, they are unpleasant to think about. But pretending to be outraged and that there is some other alternative is ridiculous.

@FruitMelange

Why the hell should I live this kind of life flogging myself to death only to fund other people who don’t make these sacrifices?

Well don't then. Spend more time with your wife and children. Money alone can't make you happy.

Oof unconscious bias right there @FruitMelange. I’m a woman. And I work this hard to provide for my children, one of whom needs additional support because he has ASD.

There are finite resources. We can't have everything.

and if we want everything we need far higher taxation that has to be spread across all.

[quote Fr0thandBubble]@Tealightsandd Oh come on! The rich are the ones paying for it all! The problem is that there are too many people taking more from the pot than they put in! Exactly how much more do you want the rich to pay? Because at a 45% tax rate (plus NI, SDLT, VAT and council tax), I certainly feel like I do my bit - and then some.[/quote]
I'm talking about the likes of Tony Blair and co. who use various tax avoidance schemes (see Pandora papers). Legal, yes. Moral? Not so much.

As for the stuff about home ownership. average is indeed the word. There are many pensioners living room in poverty. And plenty of super wealthy 30 somethings.

And like I said, things will soon change.

1. Long Covid will lower life expectancies.

1. The fastest growing group of private renters (note - private rent, not the more secure social rent) is the 40+ age group.

As for many people are living too long you can fuck right off. Tell me that when you're in your 70s. So ignorant

My mil is 93 and still drawing her pension. My own parents died in their 60s, and also my recently passed brother was 63. I have several friends pass away (die) in their late 50s, early 60s. A couple of them still working and paying their NI and taxes.

Well, they never got their money's worth, did they?

Politicians don't want to do this because they would have to stop the discrimination in terms of tax in favour of business owners/ self-employed people, and then also the general population might realise how much tax they actually pay

yes

[quote londonmummy1966]@echt - yes but only the levy - I think that they could pay a surcharge/levy equal to NIC not just the extra 1.25%. It is crazy that my DPs have six figure pension income and pay less than many struggling families.[/quote]
But they don’t. If they’ve got a six figure income, they’re paying 40% tax on most of it.

@monfuseds

It has to do with wealth though

Yes, but londonmummy's specific proposal was about NI and higher-earning pensioners. Hooking my comment, which was about the 8 million pensioners who don't qualify for tax is beside the point.

As I'm sure you know, people can be asset-rich and money poor, so their wealth is theoretical for the purposes of discussing pensions, which is what this thread is about.

This would hit women the hardest because presumably it would be means tested by household. That means women missing out if their husbands are wealthy.

Women are already massively disadvantaged in terms of pension wealth. The average women has a much lower private pension than the average man.

But they don’t. If they’ve got a six figure income, they’re paying 40% tax on most of it

Londonmummy was making a proposal about NI being levied on high earning OAPs, not income tax. I pointed out that this would lead 8 million OAPS not paying. So the levy, whether right or not, would not generate a lot of money.

As I'm sure you know, people can be asset-rich and money poor, so their wealth is theoretical for the purposes of discussing pensions, which is what this thread is about.

of course but far better to be asset rich & money poor then asset poor & money poor as at least you have options with the former.

The thread is about whether the current state pension system is sustainable & should be means tested or not. I don't know what the answer is but don't think it's crazy to take into account assets when means testing.

inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/analysis-how-bad-things-are-for-uk-pensioners-relying-on-the-state-1176172

www.express.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/1481279/state-pension-retirement-UK-world-dwp-ranking

@FruitMelange

Why the hell should I live this kind of life flogging myself to death only to fund other people who don’t make these sacrifices?

Well don't then. Spend more time with your wife and children. Money alone can't make you happy.

Jesus. Why the assumption that the poster is either a man or a lesbian? Did they say that??

I also expect care in the home will move to a similar model for care out of the home (since most don't end up in care homes) with house value being included in the means testing.

Work until you drop is coming back rapidly to the UK. Rewind 150 years progress.

www.express.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/1548684/state-pension-age-increase-retirement-uk

@Tealightsandd I don't think anyone would agree with you that the state pension is crap.

argue with you!

@monfuseds

As I'm sure you know, people can be asset-rich and money poor, so their wealth is theoretical for the purposes of discussing pensions, which is what this thread is about.

of course but far better to be asset rich & money poor then asset poor & money poor as at least you have options with the former.

The thread is about whether the current state pension system is sustainable & should be means tested or not. I don't know what the answer is but don't think it's crazy to take into account assets when means testing.

I'm not arguing about which is the the better position, it's, as they say here, bleeding obvious.

They assets test for the state pension in Australia (where I am) , though the home is not part of it. That's why I don't get the pension: income. It's also why my friend, who sold her home, downsizing to free up some money, had her state pension reduced.

So basically many of those taxpayers paying for the current pensioners pensions won’t get pensions themselves or will get them much later than those that they have paid for. That’s pretty unfair

I started work in 1969 with the promise that I would have a state pension at 60. Now it's been put back till I'm 66
It's a huge blow to my financial plans. I now don't have the money I was promised so I'm stuffed. It's not just a young person thing.

Oof unconscious bias right there @FruitMelange. I’m a woman. And I work this hard to provide for my children, one of whom needs additional support because he has ASD.

Sorry @Fr0thandBubble I didn't see you'd already responded to that post just dripping with misogyny. It's pathetic isn't it, how so many people still assume that only a man can earn a good salary. 🙄😆

@monfuseds

I also expect care in the home will move to a similar model for care out of the home (since most don't end up in care homes) with house value being included in the means testing.

Care for who? The Long Covid disabled? There will be fewer older people in the future because of increasing ill health. Long Covid, plus poverty.

But also, perhaps some people will decide to keep on smoking - rather than live longer to become one of the "financial burdens".

The majority of the current generation of pensioners left school at 16 to start working and paying into the system. No university. 50 years of income tax. Add in VAT. They've paid their share.

@monfuseds

I also expect care in the home will move to a similar model for care out of the home (since most don't end up in care homes) with house value being included in the means testing.

That proposal helped lose May lose the 2017 general election. It’s not logical, people can’t sell their home while they’re still living it. It’s absolutely right to take it into account for residential care because it’s no longer needed.

It’s not logical, people can’t sell their home while they’re still living it.

of course. they would put a charge on it reclaimed after death.

And of course it wouldn't be popular but there is a huge social care crisis so again where do people think the money is going to come from?