Constant accidents! Can the power of mumsnet help me?

[Somethingselfdeprecating]

Not really aibu, posting here for traffic. I’m really hoping the collective intelligence of mumsnet can help!
My 5yo dd is a nightmare with going to the toilet. Constant wee & poo accidents in her pants, especially at school. She’s the eldest reception child, a bright, switched on, healthy child, eats & drinks well, good sleeper, happy and doing well at school. She’s happy & cheerful at home. We have struggled with her toilet training right from being a toddler, she was keen to start and got the concept easily but it’s always been inconsistent. At home and during school holidays it’s easier for me to keep an eye on her and remind her/persuade her often to go, but even then it can be a battle - “I don’t need a wee/poo Mummy!”.
We’ve had screaming, lying down protests, full on floor beating tantrums, tears —and that’s just me— and then 2 minutes later she’s wet herself.
We’ve tried all the usual things - gentle persuasion, positive reinforcement, encouragement, rewards, sticker charts etc and when they didn’t work we tried taking away privileges & treats, getting cross, naughty step, etc. Nothing really seems to make much of a difference, we’ll maybe have a day or two of improvement and then the accidents start again.
I think she gets so engrossed in an activity that she can’t be bothered to get up and go to the toilet, she would literally spend all day with wet/soiled pants and not be fazed! If we tell her off it’s like water off a duck’s back!🙄
Her teachers are well aware of the issue and I send her to school with spare uniform every day, this week she has come home from school & after school club with 2 or 3 wet/soiled changes of clothes, school have been in touch to say they’re running out of spare clothes because of all the accidents!
I’m honestly out of ideas and not sure what to do next, ?GP maybe —if I can get a face to face appointment— so any advice would be gratefully received.
Sorry for the essay!
TLDR - 5 yo dd wets/poos herself all the time and won’t go to the toilet!
PS I know this is on aibu but please be kind!🙏🏻

I would get a GP appointment. There may be some underlying issue. Are other children aware that she is soiling herself?

Healthy families team/ school nurse or whoever it is in your local area are probably the people you need to speak to. They are probably the gatekeepers to the local continence team, who will be the people to get to the bottom of this. Also have a look at the ERIC website, children's bladder and bowel charity. They have a lot of helpful information. There's a lot of reasons that could cause this, you've tried the standard techniques, now it's time to get some specialist help.

My son was exactly the same - all through reception he would have multiple accidents. It was mortifying, to be honest. Some of his issues, we think, were related to constipation. Some of it just did feel like he couldn’t be bothered to stop what he was doing to go to the toilet. We did also find out that he didn’t really like the school toilets, so it might be worth speaking to your daughter about that.

Ultimately he did just grow out of it. He’s 7 now and hasn’t had any accident day or night for at least 18 months. Not much advice, but just to let you know that I’ve been there. The days when he got through all 3 sets of spare clothes we sent him to school with were the low points.

I think you need to rule out medical issues as it sounds like her body isn't giving her the signal that she needs the loo (sometimes this comes late for some dc)

I'm not sure if this is correct/expert advice but I'd be popping her in pull ups rather than have her regularly wetting/soiling herself and needing full change of clothes!

My son is only just dry night and day after we've been under the continence team for a couple of years so start that ball rolling ASAP with a visit to the GP. Turns out he had an overactive bladder muscle and a tiny weeny bladder as a result. After lots of other avenues they finally relented with medication recently and it's made a huge difference.

There's loads of advice on the ERIC website but headlines for us are:

• no blackcurrant, fizzy drinks of any kind (even fizzy water), no caffeine (!)
• try a Big Drink every 2 hours ie a whole cup in 10-15 minutes rather than sipping all day
• regular reminders to go to the toilet

I've found something online that says 5 year olds should have approx 210ml bladder capacity so you could try filling her full of liquid then measuring what comes out . We have to do this regularly now to check his bladder is growing. When we first did it (had to do 3 days of everything liquid that went in and everything that came out) his capacity was down around 100-120 ml and he was 7!

I think she gets so engrossed in an activity that she can’t be bothered to get up and go to the toilet,
If you genuinely think this, then you need to make going to the toilet less disruptive than not going to the toilet. I.e. make her help clean it up, wash the clothes etc.

I think you need to rule out medical issues as it sounds like her body isn't giving her the signal that she needs the loo (sometimes this comes late for some dc)
This is good advice.

Do the teachers remind her to go at break time?
Does she dislike the toilets at school? DD won't drink during the day so she doesn't have to use the toilets because the older girls use them too and they're never very clean.

Agree with GP advice. My dd was like this, she had chronic constipation. We were initially seen by gp then transferred to bladder and bowel clinic for a year.

Thankyou all for your advice! So the first thing I need to do is have a chat with dd about school toilets, then book in with the gp, and I’m going to have a good read of the ERIC website. Lots of food for thought there, never even considered the continance team!

Don't worry this isn't as abnormal as you might think. My son was like this. Stopped by about 6.5 and went through phases of dry for weeks then a few accidents a day for a while. Nothing wrong with him. Some just take longer

Bowel obstructions - even small ones can cause issues like this but even bog standard utis can too!

Lots to explore to get to the bottom of why op.

I'm an ex hcp my expertise is in elderly care but in certain areas the very young and the very old can have similar medical issues.

Sorry - meant to say I'm also an ex nanny and childminder (I know I'm a pick and mix! )

Just to say it's more common than many like to admit that children of this age still struggle to stay dry ALL the time. It's a gradual process.

I was like this as a child. I was actually chronically constipated and thus had very little sensation or warning of needing to use the toilet.

The slightest illness would also trigger UTI s in me.

I’d put her in a pull up and see the GP.

I had friends who had the same issue with their DD and the way they dealt with it really bothered me. They didn’t always have clean clothes with them, they let her continue to wear her very smelly shoes, and they refused a pull up at school. She was the kid that always stunk of wee. They also told her off for it. It really didn’t sit right with me.

She’s now 10 and no issues, but it did last a long time. I think she was still wetting the bed until she was 8 or 9.

A friend had this issue with her dd and booked a gp appt to have it looked into, and told her dd that this was happening.

This actually seemed to focus her dds mind and she improved after that.
I guess it depends whether it's a medical issue or not.

At home and during school holidays it’s easier for me to keep an eye on her and remind her/persuade her often to go, but even then it can be a battle - “I don’t need a wee/poo Mummy!”.We’ve had screaming, lying down protests, full on floor beating tantrums, tears and that’s just me and then 2 minutes later she’s wet herself.

This is the problem.

My eldest son had similar problems. It turns out he had poor muscle tone and weak core muscles. He ended up having physio and hydrotherapy.
In tandem he had a wobl watch that vibrates when he was supposed to go to the toilet (school gave us the best times to programme it for during the day eg between lessons/break etc to be least disruptive.) he also used dry like me pads in his pants - less obvious than pull ups and easier to change.

It’s is draining dealing with an incontinent child and people can be judgemental like you just haven’t bothered toilet training them!!
DD on the other hand was fully toilet trained at 18 months so I knew it wasn’t my parenting!

My DD used to have lots of accidents, particularly soiling even once potty trained. Turned out to be constipation, and a bit of loss of sensation as a result. She was on movicol which soon stopped the accidents, and and helped normal sensation return after about 9 months.

A GP appointment would be really helpful for you. If only to rule things out.

Good luck OP.

Re the tantrums and then suddenly wetting. Constipation can affect the nerves resulting in very little notice of needing a wee. Even now, 4 years after being treated for constipation dd needs to go immediately when she eventually realises. She had a toilet pass for the whole of primary for this reason.

I'd definitely have her checked for constipation. As others have said, the Eric website is useful, as is a site called the poo nurses (just Google poo nurses UK) if it is linked to constipation.

Thankyou all again for the replies and advice, it is really helping! We have a gp appointment booked for tomorrow - wish us luck!

Good luck