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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is fairy tale of New York a sackable offence ?

240 replies

Veeveeoxox · 07/01/2022 09:36

My OH played fairy tale of New York the censored version on a zoom Christmas party, he works in IT contracting moved from financial services to the public sector. They are now saying many people got offended and hurt by the song and they are wondering if he's a good cultural fit for this department .

AIBU to think this is absolutely ridiculous ? My OH is already looking for another job as the field is such in high demand he's not worried. They also waited until today to tell him instead of a month ago when the supposed incident happened.

OP posts:
Veeveeoxox · 07/01/2022 11:15

He's been there for a year which is quite a long time in the contracting world. Had his contract renewed 4 times, he wants to move on back to banking/insurance as he dislikes the lack of autonomy and micromanaging in the public sector.

OP posts:
Butchyrestingface · 07/01/2022 11:15

@KittenKong

The F word or the S word? I’m guessing the F word because you can call women anything.
That would be my guess. Like anyone would take a mere woman's hurty feelz seriously.
GorgeousGeorgiana · 07/01/2022 11:15

@KittenKong

The F word or the S word? I’m guessing the F word because you can call women anything.
Ha! Indeed

I don't think it's a sackable offence, however, from my limited experience with public sector (especially civil service), it would not surprise me at all of this was considered one. You do have to be quite careful. Hope it gets sorted out

notacooldad · 07/01/2022 11:16

The F word or the S word? I’m guessing the F word because you can call women anything

👏👏

TiredSloth · 07/01/2022 11:18

The ‘f’ word in the original had a meaning before the derogatory homosexual slur it has since become.

I’m pretty sure that the ‘f’ word was already a homophobic slur by the time this song was written in the mid 80’s.

I don’t see why ‘many’ people were offended by the censored version.

Simonjt · 07/01/2022 11:19

The original radio edit only has slut changed, not faggot, if he found it appropriate to play the original edit with faggot in then he should be disciplined as slurs should never be used or broadcast in a work place.

Sonex · 07/01/2022 11:20

And why are they only now wondering about his cultural fit after a year and 4 renewals?

Surely if he's not politically correct enough for them they would have noticed by now?

KittenKong · 07/01/2022 11:22

Hmmmm. Maybe he could claim age discrimination (I’m assuming it’s the young uns who have had a miserable Christmas break, crying over the song).

flowery · 07/01/2022 11:22

Why are people saying he would have a legal case if they terminated his contract for this?

Clearly they are being unreasonable and it’s an overreaction. But if they want to terminate they can. Not only is he (on the face of it at least) not an employee anyway, but even if he was, he’s not been there long enough to claim unfair dismissal. They can sack him for wearing green socks if they want to at this stage.

GorgeousGeorgiana · 07/01/2022 11:23

@Simonjt

The original radio edit only has slut changed, not faggot, if he found it appropriate to play the original edit with faggot in then he should be disciplined as slurs should never be used or broadcast in a work place.
Isn't it "you're cheap and you're haggard" or something?
notacooldad · 07/01/2022 11:23

I’m pretty sure that the ‘f’ word was already a homophobic slur by the time this song was written in the mid 80’s
It certainly was a slur in tbe early 80s when I was at school. So was slut and all the other adjectives used.

As we all know the song is about two drunkards having a go at each other, the words aren't going to be affectionate!

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 07/01/2022 11:24

Isn't it "you're cheap and you're haggard" or something?

Isn't that in the Ronan Keating abomination? I turn it off as soon as I realise it's him!

As we all know the song is about two drunkards having a go at each other, the words aren't going to be affectionate!

Exactly this.

Regularsizedrudy · 07/01/2022 11:26

I don’t believe this happened

Hoppinggreen · 07/01/2022 11:26

@Jumpingintomenopause

If this is in writing he has a valid case for constructive dismissal!
Not if he’s a Contractor
Sonex · 07/01/2022 11:27

Not a new controversy at all and I think plenty of precedent for playing any of the different versions - see from the wiki entry below. Shane McGowan's take is particularly interesting (and reflects what I have always thought about it - it's authentic to the characters in the song). Also interesting that originally the word 'arse' was seen as worse that 'slut' and 'faggot' - whereas now, no one cares.

Lyrical controversy and censorship

The song's lyrical content attracted attention from the start due to language contained in its second verse, where MacGowan's character refers to MacColl's character as "an old slut on junk", to which MacColl responds with a tirade that includes the words "faggot" and "arse". When the song was performed on Top of the Pops on its initial release, the BBC requested that MacColl's singing of "arse" be replaced with the perceived less offensive "ass".[21] During a live performance on Top of the Pops in January 1992, MacColl changed the lyrics further, singing "You're cheap and you're haggard". When Katie Melua performed the song with the Pogues on CD:UK in December 2005, ITV censored the word "arse", but left "faggot" uncensored.[22]

On 18 December 2007, BBC Radio 1 edited the words "faggot" and "slut" from the track to "avoid offence". MacColl's mother described the ban as "too ridiculous", while the Pogues said they found it "amusing". The BBC stated, "We are playing an edited version because some members of the audience might find it offensive".[23] The BBC later announced they had reversed their decision and continued to play the song uncensored.[24] Other BBC radio stations, including the traditionally more conservative Radio 2, had continued to play the original version throughout this period, the ban having applied to Radio 1 only. The MTV channels in the UK also removed and scrambled the words "slut", "faggot" and "arse" from the song.

In December 2018, two broadcasters on Ireland's RTÉ2 pop music station caused controversy by asking for the word "faggot" to be bleeped from broadcasts of the song. RTÉ announced that they would not censor the lyrics.[25] Some days later, MacGowan defended the lyrics in a statement released to Virgin Media Television's The Tonight Show:

The word was used by the character because it fitted with the way she would speak and with her character. She is not supposed to be a nice person, or even a wholesome person. She is a woman of a certain generation at a certain time in history and she is down on her luck and desperate. Her dialogue is as accurate as I could make it but she is not intended to offend! She is just supposed to be an authentic character and not all characters in songs and stories are angels or even decent and respectable, sometimes characters in songs and stories have to be evil or nasty to tell the story effectively. If people don't understand that I was trying to accurately portray the character as authentically as possible, then I am absolutely fine with them bleeping the word, but I don't want to get into an argument.[26]

In December 2019, BBC Radio Solent radio presenter Alex Dyke announced on his Twitter account that he would not be playing "Fairytale of New York" on his show, calling it a "nasty, nasty song" and "an offensive pile of downmarket chav bilge".[27] Other journalists have also criticised the song's lyrics.[28][29]

In November 2020, the BBC again announced that Radio 1 would play a censored version with the words "faggot" and "slut" removed, while Radio 2 would play the original, and 6 Music presenters would each decide for themselves which version to play.[30] In response musician Nick Cave accused the BBC of "mutilating" the song, stating it would be "stripped of its value".[31] Meanwhile, The Pogues' official Twitter account responded to Laurence Fox's call to get the original to the top of the charts and "#DefundTheBBC" with, "Fuck off you little herrenvolk shite"[32]

On 19 November 2020, PinkNews journalist Josh Milton described the seemingly annual argument over whether or not the use of the word "faggot" was offensive as "Britain's worst festive tradition".[33]

In December 2020, an alternative version with MacColl singing "you're cheap and you're haggard", replacing the contentious line, was included in the compilation album TikTok Christmas.[34][35]

lottiegarbanzo · 07/01/2022 11:28

Yes, the words were always meant to be horrible - and inaccurate, they're just throwing any old, nasty insult at each other - but what's changed is the view that that 'f' word just cannot be said out loud any more, in 'polite society'.

annaj83 · 07/01/2022 11:30

The queer people I know are not offended by the song. If it's censored, I don't see what the issue is.
YANBU

KimikosNightmare · 07/01/2022 11:30

@Butchyrestingface

Samcro My ds was told not to play the sound of silence by disturbed at work as it was too epic. FTOYY is not offensive.

Epic?

Presumably a typo but a great one. Grin Grin

To be fair the Disturbed version is epic.

If "epic" is a typo then what was their version "too....: to be played?

Seeline · 07/01/2022 11:33

If he's contracting, has only been there a year, and has had his contract renewed 4 times, it must be a very short term contract.

They won't sack him - they just won't renew his contract at the end of the current 3 (?) months. As they have no obligation to do for a contractor. Partly why contractors are paid more due to the lack of job security (amongst other factors). They don't have to give a reason.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 07/01/2022 11:40

I have no problem with the song being censored. I get (and agree with) everything Shane MacGowan says about the language being in keeping with the character in the song, but I also understand why gay people don't want to hear that word. The same is true of the N word in Oliver's Army: it's included precisely to show the cynicism and misanthropy of the character in the song, but I still don't think black people should be randomly subjected to hearing it, if they turn on the radio.

However, refusing to play a song because it contains a word you don't like that has been removed is barking mad.

2022sucksalready · 07/01/2022 11:43

@Samcro

My ds was told not to play the sound of silence by disturbed at work as it was too epic. FTOYY is not offensive.
But it’s THE BEST version (and I say that as a long-standing Simon and Garfunkel fan). Wherever your DS works is not somewhere I think I’d be fitting in! Poor man.
saraclara · 07/01/2022 11:45

So what did they say when he pointed out that he played the censored version @Veeveeoxox?

JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil · 07/01/2022 11:47

Yes this happened. Haven’t you culture warriors got anything better to do?

toastofthetown · 07/01/2022 11:47

@annaj83

The queer people I know are not offended by the song. If it's censored, I don't see what the issue is. YANBU
And some queer people I know are...
runningfromtheoutlaws · 07/01/2022 11:48

Ffs how stupid