To think this should be happening anyway?

[BudgeUpAnne]

Just read this on Sky News:

North East Ambulance Service (NEAS) has been advising some patients with non-life-threatening illnesses to see if a friend or family member could drive them to hospital rather than waiting for an ambulance.

The service has been under extreme pressure and patients are now at "unacceptable" risk due to delays to ambulance response times, its medical director said.

Dr Mathew Beattie said: "This was an incredibly difficult decision to take, but when patients are waiting an average of an hour for an ambulance that should be responding within 18 minutes, there is a risk for them coming to harm if they cannot get to hospital quickly."

I know this has been debated to death on other threads but it shocks me that people with non life threatening issues are still ringing for ambulances without exhausting all other options. And every Ambulance service should have taken this approach a long time ago rather than let it get to such a critical point.

I agree, OP. Unless you're in need of paramedic assistance, make your own way to hospital.

It’s not non life threatening illnesses. It’s patients with strokes and heart attacks.

amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/04/growth-rate-covid-patients-north-more-than-double-london

Absolutely. Some people take so little responsibility for themselves and others. I recall a local complaint in the paper a few years ago about a 5hr wait for an ambulance for a broken wrist at a football match - no one had been knocked unconscious, there was no open fracture, no other blow to the head etc but the wrist was clearly misshapen. Any one of the team or spectators could (and should IMO) have taken the 21yo man to hospital by car. Utter waste of time for the ambulance service and an unnecessary complaint on top of the patient being in pain unnecessarily for most of that waiting period.

This is the result of decades of practice whereby people are never refused an ambulance for anything. And so expectations are that you phone...you get...
People SHOULD be getting told NO!!
999 is an EMERGENCY service for EMERGENCIES ONLY...
Which would leave ambulances free to attend EMERGENCIES!!

I agree 100%. It's common sense and common decency surely not to call an ambulance for a simple minor injury. I too am shocked at the culture of non-judgmentalism when people call ambulances because they are just selfish or ignorant (eg getting off their face on a Saturday night, or for ridiculous minor issues - cut fingers etc).

I think it arises from 2 main causes: a genuine ignorance about health and what is and isn't serious. I've always thought that First Aid etc should be taught in schools as a civic responsibility AND to prevent misuse of the NHS. Also - the horrible litigation culture which came over from the States about 30 years ago means that all kinds of organisations (as well as individuals) fear being sued if they don't call an ambulance. On my First Aid courses we were often told a few cautionary tales about people who sue their first aiders after the event (ruined or lost shoes, clothes cut in trying to access wounds etc) so there clearly are some unbelievably stupid and selfish people out there.

Obviously with a child you need to be more cautious, but yes, surely a 21 year old man with a broken arm could get in a taxi or other vehicle and be driven to A & E???

Obviously with a child you need to be more cautious, but yes, surely a 21 year old man with a broken arm could get in a taxi or other vehicle and be driven to A & E???

No way an ambulance would be sent for a simple broken arm even before this.

[quote PurpleDaisies]It’s not non life threatening illnesses. It’s patients with strokes and heart attacks.

amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/04/growth-rate-covid-patients-north-more-than-double-london[/quote]
This. It's serious conditions like strokes and heart attacks. They don't send out ambulances unless there is a good reason. They never have.

A few years ago I called 999 because I thought my dad was having a heart attack. After discussing the situation they thought it was probably not a heart attack and (rightly) told me to either monitor the situation or if I was really worried to take him myself to hospital. All very sensible.

Most people actually are sensible and don't try to exploit the system but people just love to get worked up about others, don't they?

@PurpleDaisies

Obviously with a child you need to be more cautious, but yes, surely a 21 year old man with a broken arm could get in a taxi or other vehicle and be driven to A & E???

No way an ambulance would be sent for a simple broken arm even before this.

I watched an episode of those programmes that follow ambulance workers on a shift and one man rung up because he had back pain. The ambulance turned up got him out of his chair and walking. All whilst his other family members sat there and watched.

These people do ring and ambulances are sent to them.

Some people truly believe that arriving in an ambulance will get them seen quicker.

I agree with the comment about it being partly about the lack of responsibility people have for themselves as a societal norm these days. That, and a reduction in community. I find it staggering that there are people who know not a single soul who could help them, but apparently that's the case sometimes. We have lost a lot of local community spirit.

My neighbour got the fire brigade out the other week, a fire engine with half a dozen blokes in it. The reason? She'd lost her keys. Obviously you'd dial 999 in those circumstances rather than a locksmith, because when she locked herself out a few weeks ago the emergency locksmith wanted to charge her money for the callout.

It's nothing new. My Dad was very ill and I had to bundle him into my car and drive him myself because the ambulance didn't arrive within an hour...he was losing blood and deteriorating.
Once at A&E I asked a paramedic in minors (my Dad was already being treated in Majors) if he could cancel the ambulance. He said "You're our next call after this" gesturing to a teen in a sling (with his mum) joking with a nurse.
That was 2013.

But isn’t this part of the whole nanny state, people always expecting others to sort out their problems?
Eg research shows that almost 40% of cancers are caused by lifestyle choices smoking, drinking, drugs, being overweight not exercising etc. But people won’t change their lifestyle just expect the NHS to sort it out and then whine when they are over stretched.

I've called an ambulance several times for non-life-threatening conditions. Once because I didn't feel qualified to assess whether it was life-threatening or not, once because I was afraid to move my elderly mother who had fallen badly and at least twice because I was physically unable to help (I can't lift an adult bigger than me and take them to the car). I also had an ambulance sent by 111 when it was completely unnecessary and an out-of-hours GP would have been more than adequate.

Saying apply common sense is helpful, saying don't call an ambulance unless you're dying isn't.

A family member with a number of conditions became worryingly ill in 2018 and on speaking to medics we were told an ambulance would come out to them but it wasn't top priority. I said I was able to drive them in and we were strongly advised not to, with lots of 'what if they take a turn for the worse in the car? What if they lose consciousness?' and emphasis that it was risky and in their opinion we should wait for an ambulance, even though they couldn't say when it would arrive and had acknowledged person would be some way down the list. I decided I would take the chance and took them the 20 minute drive in. But I can tell you that the medical advice then wasn't to drive them in - quite the opposite.

I think people misuse the service in varying ways, some selfish and some not so much. When you watch programmes like Ambulance, some of the callers need help with managing their mental health rather than an ambulance but mental health services are cut to the bone.

Are people being told no?
No this isn’t the correct service for you/ try x/y/z?

I was sat in a&e once when heavily pregnant and having chest pains and the amount of people sat there looking fine (laughing, joking, walking around fine) was staggering. Why are people not moved on to other services? We had an out of hours doctors at the time which was 24/7 and not very far away.

@Staryflight445

Are people being told no? No this isn’t the correct service for you/ try x/y/z?

I was sat in a&e once when heavily pregnant and having chest pains and the amount of people sat there looking fine (laughing, joking, walking around fine) was staggering. Why are people not moved on to other services? We had an out of hours doctors at the time which was 24/7 and not very far away.

This needs to happen more IMO.

Our local A&E has implemented a telephone triage system for anything that's not under the "E" part of A&E. If you rock up at the door unannounced in anything other than an emergency you'll be turned away.

The telephone triage system seems to do a good job of separating those who need rapid access to healthcare from those who need attention/validation/access to ordinary primary healthcare.

The NHS should be free at the point of use, but it should also be able to set sensible restrictions on how it's used - especially when it comes to 999 and A&E departments. Saying "No" to the time wasters is a necessary part of this.

However, the original article I read about this made clear they expect heart attack and stroke sufferers to be transported to hospital independent of the ambulance service. That would have killed my husband, thanks to the attending paramedic theatre was ready to receive him on reaching the hospital and they saved his life. I doubt that the same response could have been achieved via personal transport from a non-trained person. The running down of the NHS by the Tories so they can privatise absolutely has to stop!

They have sent ambulances out for minor or non emergencies. I have been taken in an ambulance after calling 111 after my baby hit his head off the coffee table. They sent an ambulance and we went to hospital. It was a bump but I was a new mother and wanted to call just incase.

We called 111 again for another bumped head, same coffee table, but there was a massive dent and I wasn't sure. Ambulance was called for again, I didn't know you could refuse ambulances. I just thought 111 would know and we needed one. it definitely is ignorance about what is an emergency. I haven't ever rung 999 but 111 almost every time has said go to a and e or we are sending an ambulance. I guess when you call for medical advice and they advise an ambulance you don't question it.

P.s. we still have the coffee table

I think going by what a pp said about community, this can be to blame. Years ago your mom/nan was on tap to help with deciding on the extent on an injury. Nowadays the mom/nan is still at work and 200 miles away due to housing etc being unaffordable where they were.
I also think more needs to be done to tell us where else to go. Round here all drs close at 5pm local hospital isnt open for anything other than appointments only and our nearest a&e is 30 min drive away.
What if a taxi there is unaffordable for them? I'm not saying I agree but I'm showing how for some people they genuinely think an ambulance is the only way to get there. Obviously that's not including all the people who dont need to be there in the first place. Only thing I can think of doing is sending them away from a&e but then you get into the whole patients being turned away instead.

They are asking people to take relatives to hospital with serious conditions that should be prioritised for an ambulance. Not just so that they can be brought to hospital but so they can be treated and monitored on the way. I know I wouldn't want to drive a family member having a stroke or heart attack, I'd be terrified and frankly a danger on the roads.

Yes, people call ambulances for ridibiculous reasons. Yes, 111 can be far too willing to send an ambulance out. But this story is categorically not about that, it's about a system that was already under ridiculous pressure due to a decade of underfunding reaching crisis point.

Stroke treatment/outcome is time critical so tbh if you can get to A&E quicker than an ambulance can get you there it's worth it.

Not many people that have strokes are suitable for alteplase to dissolve their clots and there is only a window of 4 hours from the clot.

I have to say, in the past I’ve been shocked at things that 111 have deemed ambulance worthy. On at least two occasions, I’ve had to insist that I’m perfectly capable of either driving the person to the hospital or having someone drive me.

We should be refusing free taxis ambulances for non lifethreatening illnesses. People just take the piss. "Hi I've broken my wrist" "is the bone sticking out the skin" "no" "brill. Call yourself a taxi or ask a friend/family member for a lift and pop to your local A&E within 3hrs"

@Fairyliz

But isn’t this part of the whole nanny state, people always expecting others to sort out their problems? Eg research shows that almost 40% of cancers are caused by lifestyle choices smoking, drinking, drugs, being overweight not exercising etc. But people won’t change their lifestyle just expect the NHS to sort it out and then whine when they are over stretched.

No. Medical care is a basic human right regardless of whether your lifestyle contributes to your illness or accident.

Getting a free lift to the hospital for none life threatening illnesses and accidents isn’t.