For the Economy...

[Christmascardsontheshelf]

I was just reading the second hand clothes thread and I came across a comment that comes up on mumsnet quite a bit:

The economy would come crashing down around us if we all started swapping and using only second hand.

I have seen and heard this argument loads.
Second hand is probably the only way we will get ourselves out of this mess. It really is. There is enough in the world for us all to live comfortably without making a single new thing again. I genuinely believe this. Should we carry on producing for the sake of the economy?

On a similar note, garden growing food, orchards and the like. If we all started growing a little and swapping with neighbours we would eliminate the need to mass farm food and fix the world essentially.

It has been proven that communities who grow together have decreased crime rates, which is a staggering thought when you think about it.

With so many people using food banks, receiving benefits and having to deal with increased food and energy bills, surely everyone should be moving to second hand and by extension, local home grown. (not saying poor people should buy second hand or grow their own food. I'm saying it seems to be the logical next step)

And if the economy does crash, well we will all be paying less for goods as the second hand market is cheaper than new, and our health would improve fixing the NHS and everyone could buy fruit and veg from their neighbours. Make jams and preserves, stuff like that. I just don't see how it hasn't happened yet. Is it because the rich can't get richer if the poor fend for themselves?

This is just idle thinking. Please don't scream at me via capslock. Thank you.

IT’S A LOVELY IDEA

Shhhh

PS proof is in the TED Talk on Todmorden

Well said.

It all sounds lovely in principle. I doubt if someone chronically ill, working two jobs on a zero hour contract, or living on the 12th floor of a tower block is going to be growing stuff and swapping jam with their neighbours though. Real life for the people living in deprived urban areas isn't like an episode of The Good Life.

So... what is my 3 year old son supposed to wear on his (wide) feet when every few months he goes up a size? How many times should the not-new shoes have been worn before they get to him?

Secondhand is fine, but for some things third, fourth and so on isn't. I would rather be the one putting items in the top of the funnel sometimes.

It does sound wonderful.

I am on the go 18 odd hours most days with work and care duties and I don’t know when I would ever find time to contribute to society.

I’m not sure how it would work for my reality.

I really don’t get second hand thing though, I live in poor area I could run into a charity shop naked and still not find anything I’d want to wear. I’m no fashion expert usually leggings/jeans and plain tops. Charity shops rarely sale anything that’s not been really fashionable for 5min and then looks awful. Or a cocktail dress from 1985 or skinned tight flared purple jeans in size 6.

I’m amazed anyone can manage buy only second hand they just live in areas that are very well off. Plus if nobody buys anything new then there’s nothing second hand to buy!

I buy new but wear it to death for years and years then use as rags. Think that’s just as good as buying second hand. We can’t stop buying new all together.

@ilovesooty

It all sounds lovely in principle. I doubt if someone chronically ill, working two jobs on a zero hour contract, or living on the 12th floor of a tower block is going to be growing stuff and swapping jam with their neighbours though. Real life for the people living in deprived urban areas isn't like an episode of The Good Life.

^^This

You are describing a sort of pastoral utopia. Many have tried, all have failed. Yes crimes rates were lower, but that was more than offset by the people starving to death. Do you have any idea how hard and expensive it is to grow all your own food? Or how precarious an existence that is? One bad storm, one pest infestation, and your harvest is gone and you starve to death. Women would have to feed the first child that died to her other children just to survive.

And this
“And if the economy does crash, well we will all be paying less for goods as the second hand market is cheaper than new, and our health would improve fixing the NHS and everyone could buy fruit and veg from their neighbours.”

No, When economies “crash” hyper inflation happens to consumer goods as the currency crashes into worthlessness. Look at Turkey where the lira is crashing (again). Price of a loaf of bread up 1000%? Second hand actually becomes worth more when new is not available, and can even exceed what the new price would have been if it were being made when you reach shortage of supply vs demand. We saw this happen here just this year with the chip shortage meaning very few new cars of some models, and so the second hand market for these cars skyrocketed to prices above the usual, expected new price.

I live in poor area I could run into a charity shop naked and still not find anything I’d want to wear.

Independent charity shops (such as hospices) in affluent areas tend to have the higher-end clothes.

Charity shops aren't the only option, though - eBay, Vinted or even Vestaire Collective if you want designer gear.

lol @ilovesooty I was hoping thatd come up, I spent years in a high-rise and grew a fair amount. The problem really was the cost of compost. Gardens tend to come with free soil.

Also allotments are a serious game. They have become so popular since the start of the covid era.

But what about Facebook market place, shpock and vinted, depop, eBay, karot... there are loads of second hand sites. not to mention charity shops.

There is also a second hand children's clothes website which is presented really well, the clothes are photographed like a real website for clothes and it has good filters, delivers. its just as easy as second hand shopping and if you send them your old clothes you get a voucher to spend there. Its great. Too expensive for me, I prefer 50p charity shop bins but I have time to rummage. and lots of options for charity shops.

I don't know what I'm asking but I feel like the only people who would lose out on this arrangement are big hot shot millionaires.

We would need less truckers and packers and stuff, more local delivery people (bikes like the deliveroo) and sorters and collectors and growers and mowers and blowers and flowers
just don't get it.
lots of people buy online. it should be easy to move it online.

If everyone swaps their products for other products and services, there'll be far less tax income.

Who's paying for public services then?

The NHS wouldn't be "fixed", it would be even more fucked.

Well, we sort of have it. Except when we can't swap like for like we have this stuff called money which we can exchange for something else. And we don't just exchange with friends and neighbours but the whole world...Wait this is capitalism!

For things to be different we would have to be happy giving stuff away without expecting anything in return and sharing stuff.

One of the main barriers you'd have to contend with whether or not your idea is good - is the extent to which people are wedded to capitalism. To shift the mentality of society wouldn't happen over night if ever at all. To put it another way a man the state broadcaster illustrated as superman during the pandemic is a literal billionaire who then stripped a £20 benefit uplift with next to zero consequence.

I do generally shop second hand because I can get stuff that lasts longer for a similar or cheaper price (or free when stuff is being given away) but I just don't have the time required for growing things that need time to tend and learning how to manage these things while I'm meeting the financial demands I have so therefore working a lot.
I do have space and could learn, but I don't have a great deal of understanding or time to develop that (apparently I'm a whizz at growing weeds though!) I haven't always had the space though.

And the 'economy' isn't really a faceless object, if we stop producing things then there's the people reliant on that income - what do they do? How do they earn enough to live on, because even buying second hand and growing your own food requires money to support it and to start it off.
And that's before you get to the people who have deep interests in continuing to make sure we buy things and increase what we buy and spend. They have a lot of influence over policies and how things happen because they have a lot of power and the more money they make, the more power they acquire. Money and power are everything to many people, they're not going to give that up willingly, but really it's those who need to start the change and it will cascade down through society, I can't see it rippling upwards if I start growing my own potatoes and stop buying them from the supermarket.

Why are you all poopooing utopia? It doesn't have to be all or nothing, but we definitely don't need the likes of primark or h and m who use basically slave labour to give us cheap shit. then they have their 'we are good for the earth' greenwashing campaigns and its just shit.

You can grow lettuce on a windowsill in a pot. I grew enough on my windowsills to feed a family of 5 salad for almost the whole year. The cost? maybe 5-10 pounds. on seeds and compost.

And look on YouTube about the people who have allotments or grow stuff in their backyards. So many people trying to share how they grow 200 courgettes and 15 pumpkins etc.

Thats another thing, pumpkins are delicious, store well (whole) and can be eaten all throughout winter but nobody knows this. I wonder why. how does that knowledge die out?
you have to grow things suited to your climate but inside on a windowsill is fine too.

@ArblemarzipanTFruitcake

I live in poor area I could run into a charity shop naked and still not find anything I’d want to wear.

Independent charity shops (such as hospices) in affluent areas tend to have the higher-end clothes.

Charity shops aren't the only option, though - eBay, Vinted or even Vestaire Collective if you want designer gear.

It's not just about high end. It's about nice looking, good quality, efficient and affordable clothing.

There are also many essential professions you cannot do while growing all your own food. If you’re a nurse or doctor...you don’t have the time to be hoeing and weeding your fields. The NHS would collapse due to no one being available to be a doctor or nurse. And who would be the delivery person for post or all this second stuff you’re ordering online? No can do the 150 deliveries a day and grow their own food, make jam, and boil chicken bones for stock.

Sorry but your idea is crap. It’s been tried. Look up history of attempts at self-sufficient communes. They all failed. They all also fell back into oppression of women too, so this would fuck equal rights for women.

Why are you all poopooing utopia?

Because it was the fantasy of an opium addict and has led to millions of dead as various idiots try and implement what is literally an (opium) pipe dream.

@Akire

I really don’t get second hand thing though, I live in poor area I could run into a charity shop naked and still not find anything I’d want to wear. I’m no fashion expert usually leggings/jeans and plain tops. Charity shops rarely sale anything that’s not been really fashionable for 5min and then looks awful. Or a cocktail dress from 1985 or skinned tight flared purple jeans in size 6.

I’m amazed anyone can manage buy only second hand they just live in areas that are very well off. Plus if nobody buys anything new then there’s nothing second hand to buy!

I buy new but wear it to death for years and years then use as rags. Think that’s just as good as buying second hand. We can’t stop buying new all together.

If more people donated to charity shops rather than threw things away, there'd be more choice for others to buy.

And, it's not just charity shops. There are also dress agencies which usually have a much better range/choice of clothes.

Then there's also ebay. We've bought and sold loads of clothes on ebay second hand. I've sold a leather jacket, numerous dresses, a coat, and various tops/trousers, and bought lots of similar items. I've also bought lots of things for hubby to wear (work shirts & trousers, jeans, etc). Then there's local facebook groups, etc.

Charity shops really aren't the only option.

Personally I think the "recycle" craze is wrong. We should be concentrating on reducing and reusing what we have rather then virtue signalling by recycling, much of which ends up in landfill anyway. The 3 "R" message needs to become the 1 "R" - i.e. reuse!

@Maverickess

I do generally shop second hand because I can get stuff that lasts longer for a similar or cheaper price (or free when stuff is being given away) but I just don't have the time required for growing things that need time to tend and learning how to manage these things while I'm meeting the financial demands I have so therefore working a lot. I do have space and could learn, but I don't have a great deal of understanding or time to develop that (apparently I'm a whizz at growing weeds though!) I haven't always had the space though.

And the 'economy' isn't really a faceless object, if we stop producing things then there's the people reliant on that income - what do they do? How do they earn enough to live on, because even buying second hand and growing your own food requires money to support it and to start it off.
And that's before you get to the people who have deep interests in continuing to make sure we buy things and increase what we buy and spend. They have a lot of influence over policies and how things happen because they have a lot of power and the more money they make, the more power they acquire. Money and power are everything to many people, they're not going to give that up willingly, but really it's those who need to start the change and it will cascade down through society, I can't see it rippling upwards if I start growing my own potatoes and stop buying them from the supermarket.

I don't know, I think it is rippling upwards. The pandemic literally caused people to drop their city flats and move to the countryside. its innate.

Ahh taxes. beautiful taxes.
yes I didn't think about that but I mean, not everyone can pay taxes and not everyone wants to. Jimmy carr and amazon, I'm looking at you!

A small garden shop is going to pay more tax than a massive company who moves their money and exploits loopholes to pay no or little tax.

A pumpkin grows itself, you plant it and it grows, water 💧 potatoes, same. Beans, same
easy peasy. garlic, fuck I don't think we have ever watered garlic.
Herbs and lettuce can be grown in small pots on windowsills. we all got a pot for Xmas (roses or quality street)
its so easy I really think we have been brainwashed into accepting a broken world so the rich can stay rich.

I was watching don't look up last night can you tell?

PS I am aware that I'm on a phone made by a rich rich rich. but you know, its not all or nothing, it never has to be all or nothing.

Shoes are terrible quality. I could afford to buy myself a good pair of clarkes shoes after I moved to second hand. And they lasted years. Never needed replacing. I just didn't know before.

@user1497207191 I agree with reuse reuse reuse

When I was in high school many girls left with hippies to live like this. Actually, they became slaves in these places had many kids and regret their choices. So yes it has been tried many times before so you are either too young or not sure what to say.