MN and their approach to autism

[HypocrisyHere]

I have attached two screenshots. One showing the two threads I’m watching, the other the deletion message from the first watched thread which was deleted.

The subjects of the two threads are

(1) Any ‘positive’ autism stories?
(2) Married to someone with Asperger’s: support thread 5

My confusion is that the first was deleted because “the title was not in spirit of the site” Yet thread 2 - which has (IMO) a deeply offensive as it implies all people with Asperger’s are a problem in a relationship (leaving aside the ghastly ableism within the thread) is absolutely fine?

Thread 1 was from a concerned parent who may have used clunky wording but was looking for support - yet she has been deleted. Thread 2 is for concerned partners who can blame every poor behaviour of their partners on autism and that’s all fine?

As an autistic person this makes no sense to me at all and highlights not only ableism within MNHQ but also a deeply inconsistent approach to moderation?

(Have name changed as I’m a coward)

[quote voldr]@Innocenta has made it perfectly clear in the past what she thinks of people with autism.[/quote]
I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm neurodiverse myself.

I dont think there's ever a need to be sarcastic.
You can be mean without sarcasm. I've been abused. I'm nit nice about my abusers but I don't slag him off sarcastically either. I really don't think people are understanding sarcasm. You are bringing up meanness in general and with or humour which are not different to sarcasm.

Both* not not

@HerRoyalHappiness

For me personally one of the biggest things would be to make online communication more normal. I hate phone calls, and having to speak to someone on the phone for my pip assessment left me distressed, exhausted and tearful. Making forms more clearly understood is another big one, especially for benefits. People with all sorts of disabilities struggle with the forms for claiming benefits and we shouldn't have to get support from people like citizens advice to be able to fill them in. Having routines be understood, so I don't have (none emergency) appointments and such dripped on me last minute. (To be fair my care coordinator and my therapist are really good with this. They both stick to a specific day and time and always give me lots of notice if something needs to change. We need more people like them in the world) Less sarcasm. Just in general. If society would just say what they mean and mean what they say life would be much simpler. I have a lot of physical needs too, so for me more accessible places, more elevators, automatic doors where possible (trying to open a door to a cafe while maneuvering a wheelchair in is a nightmare) or even just having the door propped open so I can live a more independent life (not that I'm able to go new places alone, but even so, I don't want to have to rely on my carer all of the time. I want to do things independently, like get into a shop or cafe)

It’s important that we listen to people as individuals though. What works for you might actually be MORE disabling for others. It wouldn’t be particularly helpful for me to assume, for example, that I should predominantly liaise with a client who has ASD via online. It’s important that I find out what is best for this individual by asking them or their carer/family member/friend. So, it’s not actually possible to have a generic list of “this is what makes the world disabling for me” because it’s only about one person.

@HerRoyalHappiness

I dont think there's ever a need to be sarcastic. You can be mean without sarcasm. I've been abused. I'm nit nice about my abusers but I don't slag him off sarcastically either. I really don't think people are understanding sarcasm. You are bringing up meanness in general and with or humour which are not different to sarcasm.

But I've told you that for me, and others, it would be painfully restrictive to have this mode of speech removed. It would be an access negative, not a positive!

I believe you that for you, sarcasm is a bad thing. If I was your friend in real life and you asked me not to use sarcasm when talking to you, I'd try to respect that in our conversations. I think it's totally fine to express what you struggle with or are upset by. But not to limit what others do, or to state categorically what they can and can't say.

It's quite ironic really.

Autism, as a condition presents problems for the people with the condition in being able to assess and predict social situations. Yet the difficulty society has at large, with making allowances for people with autism, is that they present with behaviours which cannot be easily predicted.

mickarooni that's why I've said for me. I'm well aware it's individual.

innocenta I know you're telling me it would be a negative and that's fair enough, each to their own. What I'm struggling to understand is why. I cant understand people who would purposely choose to be mean to someone, and then say but it was only sarcasm so that makes it OK. Either you don't like someone so just be honest, or you do so there's no need to be sarcastic to them surely?

Strangely there isn’t much on ADHD - YET

We meant to. But procrastinated a bit, then forgot. 😁

NB I am diagnosed with it, I’m allowed to poke fun at it as a coping mechanism. God knows the entire family has needed a massive sense of humour to get their heads round it and me over the years.

Surely all that this is demonstrating is that we should listen to individuals (and their carers) about their needs and adjust accordingly.
Wouldn't that make the world a better place all round?

@HerRoyalHappiness

Surely all that this is demonstrating is that we should listen to individuals (and their carers) about their needs and adjust accordingly. Wouldn't that make the world a better place all round?

I totally agree with you there!

@HerRoyalHappiness You don't enjoy or understand sarcasm. That's fine. You're perfectly entitled to ask people to try and avoid using it to you.
However you aren't entitled to decide how other people mean it when they are used.
Eg 'thanks for that dickhead'
I might say that jokingly in response to dp flicking water at me.
I might say it jokingly to dd when she cheerfully agrees the bacon does smell good but she's just finished it all.
I might say it within the confines of my car to the driver that just cut me up.
I might say it with venom to the idiot with no experience trying to mansplain my job to me.

I would genuinely make an effort not to use it towards someone like you in real life. But I would only do so for that individuals benefit, not because they have arbitrarily decided the world would be a better place without it and I'm somehow duty bound to obey. Indeed I'd be less inclined to do so on that basis. And in return, I would expect them to realise it doesn't come naturally, so if I slip up they should understand, rather than assuming I am wrong or being nasty.

Autism is challenging because it means people do not conform to societal expectations.

I dont recognise this as a uniform definition of Autism. In fact I dont think it is even a helpful definition.

I know people with Aspergers who are totally able to conform to society norms, especially if those norms are very clearly defined and unchanging. So for example I've known people, totally able to function at work or school, so much so you dont even see a problem, even when that work involves public interaction all day every day. However they are completely unable to look for work, interviews are hopeless, cant manage money or a calendar and are knackered utterly at the end of the day.

(They might also have a very set idea of how to make the world a better place in accordance with their needs. It's not selfish because the genuinely are trying to make the world a better place. However when faced with evidence to the contrary, be unable to see why someone might have different and even conflicting needs. This can be very hard for everyone involved)

Society cant uniformally change because not only will you have to deal with the fact that the ASD community does not have uniform needs, but it's not always desirable in many instances.

I know many people with autism will not like the connection between
violence and autism, but I am going to discuss my experiences and that of the people around me. If you dont like it, skip the rest of my post.

As a little DS diagnosed with ASD, he could not communicate at all. It was way easier for him to communicate by biting hitting and pulling hair, it was very effective, very quick and easy way to remove any hassle of trying to communicate. Yes I changed his environment, all his home and nursery caregivers learnt makaton, he used pecs, his bedroom became a low stimulatory environment with specifically chosen stimulatory elements. But he damn well was going to conform to the societal expectation that he did not hurt others. And yes he learnt.

However I know some individuals with autism who cannot and a few who will not (because frankly it is so effective at making their environment and the people in it conform to their sensory and communication needs).

I have seen support groups for children where a certain level of violence was tolerated because "it's Autism they cant conform to society expectations so society needs to change". I many cases this actually parents means the child stops trying, "well it's their autism afterall?"

I would not object to a post about celebrating autism but one where someone complains about oh because of their autism I would definitely have issue with.

@Caramellatteplease, fine, I stand corrected. I was, perhaps, rather clumsily trying to communicate my experiences of society at large. As you have illustrated, this (too) is not entirely predictable. People with Autism might conform or they might not. And yes, I think you were correct to act your hope your DS could learn to be less violent and managed to teach him successfully. I myself was coming from the stance that in some ways society will find it easier to have lower expectations in order to assess and make provisions rather than setting out on a course of action which offers the hope of a better outcome but for which the success rate is less easily predicted.

@glimpsing

I think this reflects on society as a whole.

Autism is challenging because it means people do not conform to societal expectations. They either do not reach these expectations or exceed them. Both of these outcomes are seen as problematic by many. Because societal expectations and conventions are only flexible within very narrow parameters. People like to be able to predict what people will do, how they will feel. It upholds the status quo. Parents are given advice, teachers know what to teach, curriculums devised etc based on expectations.

So if a person is neuro-diverse they need a label so society can be warned they don't conform to expectations. There is a certain trade off in being allowed permission not to conform, since society's infrastructure relies on people being predictable. So they are singled out as. 'Other'.

However, there is an evolutionary function in being non conforming. Sometimes society itself needs adjustment. People need to become more agile and resilient to change.

Autism is a neuro diversity. Society is challenging.

Autism is a neuro diversity. Society is challenging

Yes, that too.

@HerRoyalHappiness

innocenta I'm not sure how it would lessen anyone's quality of life. I dont understand why people meed to be told lies that aren't really lies because its said in a specific tone of voice. What is the point in that?

Brilliant. Society should be more understanding, but wait, something I don't iike/understand even though people have explained why they enjoy it I want banned.

I don't remember the poster ever saying they want sarcasm banned. Or are you misinterpreting and projecting?

I didn't say I want it banned. I was asked what would make life easier for me. I simply stated what would do that. I then said I didn't understand why people enjoy it. That isn't saying I want it banned you like to be sarcastic, fair enough. That doesnt mean I have to understand why you'd want to be.

"Autism is a neuro diversity. Society is challenging."

Autism is a disability.

Autism is diagnosed by difficulties with social interaction, social communication and repetitive behaviours. Society is challenging for a person diagnosed with autism by definition of their diagnosis.

Autism seems to be an identity for some but for others a disability.

@Justrealised

"Autism is a neuro diversity. Society is challenging."

Autism is a disability.

Autism is diagnosed by difficulties with social interaction, social communication and repetitive behaviours. Society is challenging for a person diagnosed with autism by definition of their diagnosis.

Autism seems to be an identity for some but for others a disability.

Or, for many, both.

@AlfonsoTheGoat

”Peace to you all, happy 2022 and I hope that MN can perhaps become a place that is a little less hostile to autistic people in the next year.“

I would add to that - perhaps the MN armchair psychologists will learn to leave the diagnoses to the experts?

I agree. So many stupid, thick posts on here I can't even begin to go through any of them.

I'll share my system with you: I don't engage. I say my piece and then if someone posts an idiotic response, I just scroll past their post.

I mean, I even see threads on here these days where people are arguing about how they should be able to use racist, outdated terms.

Another thing to bear in mind is that a lot of parents with recently diagnosed children have internalised ableism that they are unaware of. Many of these parents also have autism themselves and haven't figured it out. I have seen so many cases of this over the years.

@Itsnotover

I mean, I even see threads on here these days where people are arguing about how they should be able to use racist, outdated terms.

Another thing to bear in mind is that a lot of parents with recently diagnosed children have internalised ableism that they are unaware of. Many of these parents also have autism themselves and haven't figured it out. I have seen so many cases of this over the years.

You wouldn't @Itsnotover by any chance be armchair diagnosing random adults with autism? Tut tut.