To be really really worried about energy prices

[Letshaveablackcelebration]

Sorry, this isn’t very Christmassy but it’s been in the news a lot the last few days. I don’t think I had really grasped until the last week how serious the energy price hike is going to potentially be. At the moment we are on some super saver deal with Scottish power that I got through Martin Lewis so we pay around £100 all in for gas and electric. the cheapest I have found so far in comparison is £240 - it’s really horrific and partly because there are very few deals about.

Aibu to be really very concerned about the coming price rises- and the Inflationary pressures that will go with it. It’s a proper shitstorm and likely to bring 50% rises in bills.

When you look to change supplier don’t look for who will quote you the lowest per month.
Look at the unit price and also the daily standing charge ( for both gas and electricity ) You need the combination of these two to be the lowest possible. It’ll take you a good couple of hours to find the balance that makes the best deal.

I'm not understanding this. It sounds like you are manually doing what the comparison sites already do automatically. If you put in the kwh of gas and electricty you expect to use, they will take into account everything, not just the standing charge and unit price, but any cash incentives for signing up, and show you the cheapest price.

I don't understand what you are getting for you 2 hours of effort that I'm not getting in the less than a minute it takes me to go the comparison site, type in two numbers, and press search.

Although paying by DD monthly is the most popular option it benefits the energy companies. As long as you can budget ( and have the resources to pay more in winter) you can opt to pay each bill as it comes.

The last time I looked at this, admitted long ago, the tariffs available were worse if you paid by quarterly variable DD rather than fixed monthly amounts. I don't know why they are so keen for people to be put on fixed monthly payments, maybe they think other customers are more of a hassle. (My monthly payments have always very accurately collected the amount needed to cover my annual bills.)

We are reliant on gas imports from other countries.

The UK government, apparently supported by voters, is not encouraging more exploration and investment in potential UK gas fields.
We are not allowing fracking as our population is against it.

We are closing down our mines that produced relatively high-calorie and 'clean' coal and importing less useful and dirtier coal.

We continue to build subsidised windmills, paying the owners of the land they are on, and paying out when there is not enough wind to produce electricity. There is too much cloud cover in the UK for solar power to be reliable.

We don't build nuclear power stations, preferring to spend years fighting about them as people don't want one in their area, and importing nuclear from France, where we have no control either over the quality of the builds or over any radiation that should be released in the event of an accident. We are 'looking at' small scale nuclear installations, and looking at them, and looking at them ...

Gas and coal power stations can be brought on and taken off-line comparitively fast and can react to changes in wind and solar-generated power. Nuclear can give us

If we want the government to do something, price caps, insulation, etc, that will cost money that will be added to the bill. If we want commercial customers to pay more that cost will be added to what we buy.

Transportation costs are rising. Food costs are rising. Covid has left us with a big debt that will need to be paid. According to HMRC, only about 300,000 people pay more in income tax than they use. That's the population of a medium/large London borough. The oft-referenced multinationals that apparently escape paying their 'fair share' of tax, have tax demands made on them from every country they are involved with; why would the UK win out over other countries?

Oops. Nuclear can give us steady background power generation but cannot react to changes in demand.

The issue with the small companies going bust is that they offered prices to their customers based on what they (the companies) were paying at the time. When the wholesale price shot up round the world, they could not supply at the fixed price and had to go bust.

Larger companies were forced to take on their customers, but had fixed their own purchasing on the international markets for years ahead, based on the consumption they were expecting from their then customers. When a whole lot of new customers were added, they had to buy energy at the international price of the day and will, over time, recoup that (to avoid also going bust) from both their new customers and their previous customers.

If you are so inclined you can blame Brexit, but it's an international situation.

I didn't say I was in fuel poverty,we are taking steps to ensure this doesn't happen. Gluing yourself to a road, achieves nothing. A lot of the protesters were extremely well off,a millionaire property landlord in his 20s, why do they not simply help people with insulation. If that is claimed to be their goal. The government wants to phase out oil CH in a few years,then fossil fuels,never mind we can import fuel from abroad,let's not worry about the CO2 to get it here. Don't upset the French or Putin. Am trying to balance doing my best for the planet,and family. We already have an electric fire in our lounge, believe me,it doesn't go on very often,or for very long

how does protesting achieve anything? it achieved men and woman the vote, workers rights.

your worried about fuel poverty but you don't want people protesting to the government to stop fuel poverty - tell me how this makes sense?

people will overpay a direct debit every month for fuel and seem to be ok with utility companies using the public as a bank but object to people protesting to keep people warm, I truly find it a bizarre concept

I'm not understanding this. It sounds like you are manually doing what the comparison sites already do automatically.

the comparison sites are only basing the price on the size of house and the direct debit available - not the actual unit price and the true consumption of gas and electric.

paying a quarterly bill is more expensive as its an accurate bill and the utility company doesn't get you to loan a monthly amount like the other 90% of their customers

The comparison sites do use your usage if you select to use that instead of the monthly direct debit amount. I have always input actual usage when doing my comparison.

My usage roughly matches my direct debit payment as when I submit a reading monthly ot shows me almost immediately how much gas/electricity I have used and the cost. I can also amend my direct debit up and down online if I am in credit or debit

@ArblemarzipanTFruitcake

YANBU. We had our heating on most of the day yesterday as a 'treat' for Christmas. That's a bit sad, isn't it?

Thats not new, we did that in the 70's. Even now if i smell the 'dusty radiator' smell it reminds me of Christmas day as a child.

Same shit, different decade

I've always entered the previous annual kWh in the comparison sites. Surely that is the metric they use when looking for the best deal?

@ivykaty44

The campaigners are demanding the government perform a retrofit of all UK homes to make them more energy-efficient, in order to meet the UK climate change targets under the Paris Agreement.

According to the Insulate Britain website, the nation’s 29 million homes are “the oldest and least energy-efficient housing stock in Europe”, with almost 15% of the UK’s total emissions coming from heating homes.

The UK “needs a nationwide programme to upgrade almost every house”, said the activists, but the government “does not have a robust long-term national strategy with a funding mechanism in place to retrofit our homes”.

Insulate Britain has launched a petition listing two key demands to be met by Downing Street before the protests stop:

Fully fund and take responsibility for the insulation of all social housing in Britain by 2025.
Produce within four months a legally binding national plan to fund and take responsibility for the full insulation retrofit, with no externalised costs, of all homes in Britain by 2030.

This is the aims of insulate Britain, so much vitriol against what they are campaign for and they believe it should be free

Yet people worried about rising prices of utilities

And the best way to get public support is piss everyone off by gluing yourselves to the roads causing chaos

Sorry, you lost my support when that poor woman died as they couldn't get to hospital in an ambulance cos the IB twats blocked the roads

And the best way to get public support is piss everyone off by gluing yourselves to the roads causing chaos

I do believe the suffrage movement annoyed people, but they got everyone the vote. the aim of a protest isn't to be popular

The comparison sites do use your usage if you select to use that instead of the monthly direct debit amount. I have always input actual usage when doing my comparison.

I did that, then a year later realised id used less and paid more, so now check the price per unit and don't trust the comparison sites calculations

I've never had an issue with comparison sits calculating wrong (I tend to use u switch and always put my actual usage for previous year in). I'm not bothered about giving the energy company a 'free loan' having credit on my account on monthly DD either. What else am I going to do with it? Have it earning 0.01% in a savings account? Might as well get a marginally better unit rate. Tonik used to give 3% interest on credit which was very good. Didn't do them much good as they later went bust!

I am concerned about the rising cost of energy, and everything else though. I am taking out a new mortgage in the new year, and have deliberately chosen a longer term than I could have got, just to keep the payments down to give a bit more flex in my budget. If things turn out to be not as bad as I fear, I can over pay, but if they are I have some breathing room, even though I will pay for it in extra interest. I am at least fortunate I have that option .

I have read EI policies.not every home can be retrofitted,it's not even always advisable. I met relatives Christmas Eve, some friends moved into a passive House,and have the most dreadful condensation. You aren't meant to have wet boots in the house, never mind wet washing. Use the tumble dryer,you'll have ER after you. I was made homeless,after divorce,was just happy to have a cold draughty house that was being demolished, spent my first 5 years of marriage in a metal caravan, with one heater

These price rises are nothing to what will be needed to drive us to Net Zero emissions by 2050. The cost increases will be savage to drive down demand and pay for the transition of our energy system, insulate houses and so on.

Arm waving about “The Government” paying for everything is always a mistake as the Government has no money. That’s the problem with the IB message…their proposal may be good but would need to see whether we get the most emissions reductions per pound spent with their plan. Just saying it’s free loses me because it’s silly.

@amicissimma

We are reliant on gas imports from other countries.

The UK government, apparently supported by voters, is not encouraging more exploration and investment in potential UK gas fields.
We are not allowing fracking as our population is against it.

We are closing down our mines that produced relatively high-calorie and 'clean' coal and importing less useful and dirtier coal.

We continue to build subsidised windmills, paying the owners of the land they are on, and paying out when there is not enough wind to produce electricity. There is too much cloud cover in the UK for solar power to be reliable.

We don't build nuclear power stations, preferring to spend years fighting about them as people don't want one in their area, and importing nuclear from France, where we have no control either over the quality of the builds or over any radiation that should be released in the event of an accident. We are 'looking at' small scale nuclear installations, and looking at them, and looking at them ...

Gas and coal power stations can be brought on and taken off-line comparitively fast and can react to changes in wind and solar-generated power. Nuclear can give us

If we want the government to do something, price caps, insulation, etc, that will cost money that will be added to the bill. If we want commercial customers to pay more that cost will be added to what we buy.

Transportation costs are rising. Food costs are rising. Covid has left us with a big debt that will need to be paid. According to HMRC, only about 300,000 people pay more in income tax than they use. That's the population of a medium/large London borough. The oft-referenced multinationals that apparently escape paying their 'fair share' of tax, have tax demands made on them from every country they are involved with; why would the UK win out over other countries?

So much of this is wrong. We actually get most of our gas from the North Sea. We don't have a "big debt that will have to be paid" from covid - a nation's finances don't work like that - but politicians love to pretend it's like a credit card so they can pretend we all need to pay for rich people to get richer.

Multinationals pay far more corporation tax in the USA because the USA doesn't allow them to trade there otherwise - we could do the same, but choose not to.

HMRC are liars about most things things so I don't believe their claim that only 300K people are net contributors.

DontBlameMe79 the government hasn't got any money, yet can waste billions on T&T, that money and much more is suddenly available. the government will spend far more on reaction than planning. insulation is a far better plan for 4 million homes in fuel poverty and that number will rise.

nanny - if its fine to live in a caravan with one heater, or a draft house ready for demolition - why are you bothering with solar for yourself?

people are worried about increasing utilities, they don't want to be living in the cold. just because 5% of houses can't be insulated doesn't mean you don't look at insulating the other 95%

@ivykaty44

DontBlameMe79 the government hasn't got any money, yet can waste billions on T&T, that money and much more is suddenly available. the government will spend far more on reaction than planning. insulation is a far better plan for 4 million homes in fuel poverty and that number will rise.

nanny - if its fine to live in a caravan with one heater, or a draft house ready for demolition - why are you bothering with solar for yourself?

people are worried about increasing utilities, they don't want to be living in the cold. just because 5% of houses can't be insulated doesn't mean you don't look at insulating the other 95%

My point on the Government not having any money is that it’s our money - And I agree they are world class at wasting it for us.

So I don’t want them to waste it on insulation for houses if we’d get a better bang for the buck by doing something else…electrify the transport system, or build nuclear power or any one of a dozen other initiatives that reduce emissions and improve lives.

People who say “do them all” usually accompanied with “by taxing the top 1%” are contributing about as much to the debate as the M25 face gluers.

So I don’t want them to waste it on insulation for houses

so on a thread of people worried about the rising costs of keeping warm you think that it'd be a waste of money to get the government to insulated houses, an electric travel system isn't going to keep people warm.

basic human needs are health, warmth and food and having insulated homes would go to achieving two for the 3 and leave money for the third

@ivykaty44

So I don’t want them to waste it on insulation for houses

so on a thread of people worried about the rising costs of keeping warm you think that it'd be a waste of money to get the government to insulated houses, an electric travel system isn't going to keep people warm.

basic human needs are health, warmth and food and having insulated homes would go to achieving two for the 3 and leave money for the third

There was an “if…” after the part you quoted. So how do you know we could do 2 of the three things you mention with money to spare for the third? Are insulated homes going to solve the health crisis? Might help but the NHS could use up all the money we throw at it and still have its hand out as everyone has to die sometime and end of life treatments just get more and more expensive.

My point is everything we choose to do is a trade off and we have limited resources. We need to make sure we get the biggest impact from the resources we have and not just arm wave. Could be house insulation, could be something else…but needs a serious discussion, not superglue.

The draughty house was demolished to build a petrol station, the Caravan was a stopgap and rotted away. Pretty stupid questions. Why am I having solar, because fossil fuels are being banned,so we have to go some other path. No choice before, I was a damn sight younger,didn't have health problems made worse by cold and damp. You should try living in a caravan in the winter,with the mould, been there done that, worked damn hard for what I have now.

No choice before, I was a damn sight younger,didn't have health problems made worse by cold and damp.

Really, and you think what IB are protesting for is ridiculous.

Warmth in winter promotes healthy humans, healthcare and warms are basic human needs.

DontBlameMe79

In USA there is much the same arguments given about not having social healthcare given for everyone, you can go paying for everyone, whilst Europe looks on in amazement.
Heating actually prevents healthcare problems and thus why it’s conspired a basic need

I’m not convinced that you can give me a good reason why I should be against IB proposal to get homes insulated to prevent fuel poverty and help prevent people worrying so much about rising fuel cost, I see that as a good thing.

So I don’t want them to waste it on insulation for houses if we’d get a better bang for the buck by doing something else…electrify the transport system, or build nuclear power or any one of a dozen other initiatives that reduce emissions and improve lives.

Demand reduction is almost always more cost efficient than increasing capacity, and especially with the shift to full electrification of energy, energy efficiency looks like particularly good value for money.

The problem is partly an accounting one - mass energy efficiency measures aren’t considered as infrastructure projects in the same way as new generation or storage would be - and partly an ideological/presentational one - paying for home improvements that would reduce demand can be portrayed as middle class welfare/adding value to their homes that people should (but largely don’t - storing up system wide costs) be willing/able to pay themselves.

So energy efficiency programmes tend to be underfunded, piecemeal and don’t get the scale needed to deliver the best financial efficiency - so they cost more than they need to and we don’t see the cost reductions and innovation that we’ve seen in renewables/storage.

In a nutshell, it’s more politically palatable to subsidise a nuclear power plant or O&G exploration and extraction than it is to subsidise energy efficiency to the same level, despite better return on investment. One could make less charitable comments about why that might be….

(I’m not sure IB’s methods are totally helpful - mostly because of childish ‘I don’t like them so I will discount their argument’ responses - but it is difficult to argue with their goals.)