To resent my youngest child's behaviour

[Nozy]

I feel awful writing this and it's my first post so I am expecting to be bashed but after having 2 lovely children who are both placid and chilled who always do as they're told and are always happy and a joy to raise, 5 and 8 I then have my youngest (4 yo) who is such a handful both my husband and I are totally drained and feel we can't do as much with the older ones as we'd like as the youngest spoils everything on purpose and is difficult and very hard work.
She finds great pleasure in being deliberately awkward and is very strong willed and defiant.
She won't walk anywhere and insists on being carried or she sits on the floor and won't move, she won't do anything she is told at home and we literally can't take her anywhere even friends houses.
Her nursery says she is very well behaved there and they have no behaviour concerns so it sounds like it's just at home, there's less than 2 years between my youngest girls and they have exactly the same upbringing and yet her sister is good as gold and we have a lovely relationship as I do with my son but the youngest is making life so hard I don't enjoy parenting her like I do my other 2 who I have so much fun with but all I feel with my youngest is stress and frustration at her constant rebellion and my husband feels the same as our entire lives evolve around a battle of wills with the youngest.
I feel like we had the perfect family and now we can't go anywhere or do anything because she makes it such hard work. I do love her, I love them all but I wish she would work with me instead of fighting against us all the time.

She has another side to her where she is very loving and affectionate, has loads of character and loves cuddling up on the sofa and she can be funny and cheeky and has an adorable smile which melts our hearts but she's just so strong willed it's draining.
I guess I'm just hoping someone can give me some advice that worked for them as we've tried the "I understand you want to do this but... approach and naughty steps which she just refuses to sit on and taking privileges which she'll scream until she gets back, or scream and shout until she gets her way nothing seems to work.
I'm sure she doesn't have ADHD OR ASD I think she's just a strong willed determined little madam girl who isn't going to let her parents get in her way, but her parents are at their wits end.

@Nozy

I hope she doesn't have ADHD as I have innatentive ADHD but I can't turn it on and off in different settings and at nursery she's very compliant and well behaved. It was my first thought after another parent suggested it but after speaking with nursery they didn't think anything was wrong with her behaviour and said she knows exactly what's expected of her there and is a little helper and likes to takes the younger children under her wing.

It can still be ADHD. There are different types from the inattentive type of ADHD. The HD= hyperactive and many children, especially girls, will be hyperactive in school by being ultra good student....always bright eyed and cheerful, hand shooting up to answer the question right first, always first in line to go anywhere, always first to volunteer.

They then crash at home after expending all that energy and don’t want to do anything, help with anything, can’t pay attention to anything. They almost shut down and demands on them are met with refusals because after all the hyperactivity they are exhausted physically and mentally.

Try to understand her rather than change her. My 6 year old is incredibly 'difficult' and it has got way worse since he started school. I gradually began to realise that he's a massive introvert just like me, and that school is putting a lot of pressure on him to 'come out of his shell' and be more outgoing. That's just not his nature and he can 'perform' at school but it really drains him .

I notice a real increase in problem behaviour from him when we do too much, so we had a really busy weekend there of Christmas type socialising and activities (don't get on my case about Covid please!) and last night he had a terrible meltdown.

He needs space and peace and alone time l, or at least time with just one parent, in order to remain calm and secure. So we really really try to focus on that. We also have three children (he is the oldest) so that can be tricky but it's the only way he can function and be happy.

The thing is, I'm very similar and get easily overwhelmed by too much social interaction or time outside the house. As soon as I figured out that he is just the same, but can't control his response to that the way I can, it became easier.

Maybe your daughters behaviour is coming from something like this? And you can try to think of strategies to help her cope.

Sounds like one of my gc. Awful at 3 and 4 years old couldn’t be taken anywhere without screaming, biting, throwing a hissy fit at everything, started to improve once at school, now a polite, helpful, perfectly amenable nearly 11 year old. Of course, the teenage years are yet to come.

Obviously, any underlying conditions should be ruled out first by professionals, but it's all about Consistency, with a capital C. As others have said, she has learnt that if she screams or tantrums long enough she will get what she wants. Why on earth would you expect her NOT to do that? Hell, I'm an adult and I would. OK, I wouldn't tantrum but if I knew that a certain behaviour would get me what I wanted from DH, I'd probably use that 'tool', too. So you just have to put up with her screaming/tantrumming at home or in public until she has 'unlearned' her learned response. It's hard and often embarrassing in public. But it's what must happen. And it's worth putting up with a few nasty glances or some ringing ears to get them to behave appropriately.

I agree with another PP's 'divide and conquer' approach. If she refuses to go somewhere then one parent goes with the other children and the other stays home with her with no privileges or she is left with a sitter/relative who can be trusted not to give into her. If she misbehaves in public, one parent stays with the other children and carries on and the other parent takes her home, to the car, or to sit somewhere.

Our DS2 tried this on with us for a short period of time. At home we told him ONCE "I cannot understand you when you're shouting/crying. Please stop and speak to me quietly" and if he didn't stop then we ignored him until he calmed down. If we were in public he was immediately taken from wherever we were to the car to wait for the others or to be driven home. I can remember leaving a trolly full of groceries in the middle of an aisle and carrying him tantrumming under one arm out the door.

Again, any underlying condition should be ruled out by a paediatrician or specialist. But other than that, it's about retraining her, and you.

My ex's youngest was like this but with added physical aggression (hitting, spitting etc) when angry. Which was almost always due to being asked to do something, told not to do something or not liking what was on offer (where we were heading out to, what is for dinner etc)

Part of the reason the relationship fell apart. I couldn't put up with it. I suspect adhd or oppositional defiant disorder (ODD)

I am softly spoken but always firm with boundaries but she plays up for grandparents too and my parents were very strict and no nonsense and can't win with her.

You need to reframe this. 'Can't win'? Ouch. And this:

the youngest spoils everything on purpose and is difficult and very hard work

She's being herself and her brothers are being themselves. I'm sure you don't call them people-pleasing potato children

I know it's rough but she's perfect. Some of the behaviour needs worked on. But she's perfect.

@LampLighter414 I'd suggest PDA (pathological demand avoidance) rather than ADHD or ODD - definitely worth a read up.

@Nozy I'd suggest that you child is probably neurodiverse given what you're saying and the fact you are yourself. ADHD and ASD don't have to present in the same way in every child and is definitely genetic and runs in families.

@ mrsterrypratchett

Stop valuing compliance. Who wants compliance in people FGS?

Friends. Employers. Housemates. Landlords. Life-partners. Police. Council housing. Hospital staff.

A previously "defiant, independent child " family member is now a dysfunctional middle aged adult. Unemployable. Dumped by the mother of his unsupported children after they were all evicted from her council house due to his behaviour. But not independent at all; totally dependent on benefits, drugs, alcohol, gambling, crime, and a long line of gullible suckers.

This sounds like my first. He has always deliberately done the opposite of what he's asked, he'll do things just because it upsets other people, very strong willed and defiant and just generally exhausting.
He was the reason we waited for years before having a second.

But he can also be the most caring, thoughtful, kind child I know.
He's getting better with age, he's 9yo, and there's a lot more of the kind side now. But we have to constantly work on his behaviour, watch him around DC2, and encourage his good nature.
Hopefully your DD will also mellow with age.

@2bazookas

@ mrsterrypratchett

Stop valuing compliance. Who wants compliance in people FGS?

Friends. Employers. Housemates. Landlords. Life-partners. Police. Council housing. Hospital staff.

A previously "defiant, independent child " family member is now a dysfunctional middle aged adult. Unemployable. Dumped by the mother of his unsupported children after they were all evicted from her council house due to his behaviour. But not independent at all; totally dependent on benefits, drugs, alcohol, gambling, crime, and a long line of gullible suckers.

And that's the difference parenting makes. You guide their adventurousness. You create opportunities for them. My DD has frankly scary hobbies as well as creative ones. She does things that would make another type of child cry.

You value the good in them and parent the less desirable traits over time.

My child is very strong willed. (He's also ASD, which doesn't help.)

Apologies if I'm preaching to the choir. But when you are engaged in a battle of wills, it's sometimes helpful to give kids a choice between two (suitable, parental approved) options so they feel like they are getting to maintain some control.

Eg, if you are fighting over getting your child to get into their car seat - make the car seat itself non negotiable but give them a choice elsewhere to distract and make them feel that can make some decisions. Eg, do you want x-music in the car or y-music? Do you want to take x-toy or y-toy with us today? (I'm not trying to sound patronising - this is a technique we we taught by a Barnados family support worker when our son's behaviour had us in pieces. It absolutely worked at heading off a ton of challenging arguments.)

Also be prepared to pick your battles - eg you might be willing to overlook sloppy table-manners in the short-to medium term if it means your kid eats her vegetables. You can't tackle every challenge at once.

Sending you hugs, Op. Been there and it can be tough. But your kid is not bad, just struggling to control some big emotions right now. X

You have my sympathy as our 1st was like this. Rewarding positive behaviour, rather than punishing (eg beads in a jar etc) & giving choices (eg do you want to wear dinosaur or cat socks, rather than put your socks on). You’ve almost certainly tried these but it’s always worth a reminder. Catch her being good. She wants to be the happy cuddly child you love. Keep building on that and let her know that you’re ready for her to return to that when she’s calmed down. Also sometimes just walk away! It really is the only thing you can do to stay sane.

If she's holding it together at nursery she probably needs time to let loose and afterwards.

They say all challenging behaviour is communicating an unmet need. Perhaps she needs more control? Or more empowering/ esteem building activities? More or less stimulation (helpful I know sorry )

A friend told me recently about a parenting theory that surprised me but has been really helpful for me. When you need them to do something and they're playing up just stick to single word instructions "teeth" "pyjamas" "tidy." Apparently when we try and do things nicely and rationalise and validate we can actually overwhelm them and the point gets lost. I'm all for talking things through and explaining but actually when they're playing up the one word thing frequently works well for us.

Good luck!!

@GaspingGekko

This sounds like my first. He has always deliberately done the opposite of what he's asked, he'll do things just because it upsets other people, very strong willed and defiant and just generally exhausting. He was the reason we waited for years before having a second. But he can also be the most caring, thoughtful, kind child I know. He's getting better with age, he's 9yo, and there's a lot more of the kind side now. But we have to constantly work on his behaviour, watch him around DC2, and encourage his good nature. Hopefully your DD will also mellow with age.

Can I ask why you had a second child? Just curious as to what "changed" in your DS's behaviour to think it the right time to introduce a sibling.

Have you checked her hearing? Properly checked, I mean, not just "I know she hears".

Ds could be similar at that age. He had quite severe glue ear but had learnt to adapt very well. The carrying was so his ears were near my mouth so he could hear, for example. At one point he had only 10% hearing, but he lip read and adjusted so you wouldn't have known.

If I'd put him down and walked off he'd have waved to me and if he had decided to walk it would have probably been in the opposite direction.

The thing that struck me in your post was that you’ve brought them all up exactly the same. I think others have said the same but your 4 year old needs bringing up in a different way from the description you’ve given. I can’t offer any advice about potential adhd or similar but I will say, from my own experience of my now dd2 who is 5 now, what worked for her big sister most definitely didn’t work for her. I remember being so smug about dd1, naively thinking I’d totally nailed being a parent until dd2 made an appearance and omg the difference! I’d got in to such a state that even taking her shopping required some sort of self help therapy before I had the courage to go out the door with her. What worked for me would probably not work for you as they have tailored needs to it’s getting to learn what’s effective, it’s worth the investment as my dd2 is now an absolute delight (obviously has her moments as we all do) but I worked with her (not the same as succumbing to her demands), consistency was key for us.

Look into Hand in Hand Parenting, it really takes all the power struggles out of parenting

You said about having a perfect family - remember no child is perfect, no family is perfect. You have a child who feels the need to assert herself all the time - it isn’t going to be easy and most likely she’ll mellow with love, patience and boundaries but will have a bigger character then your first children,
Except the child you’ve got - find her strengths and focus on those. Work on delivering clear and fair consequences.

Hi OP. it’s interesting you say you have inattentive adhd. I have felt for some time that I have this. I can sit in front of a computer and do no work for hours, every day.

May I ask did you get diagnosed and are you having treatment?

My middle one is the same. She's almost eleven now and things are so much easier. I think back to when she was two and I had our third as a baby and I don't know how I got through it really. It was extreme.
She cannot be bribed, she will forever call your bluff and will totally cut off her own nose to spite her face. She had to do everything for herself, before she was able. She was born raging at the world. I remember saying there was something 'wrong' with her when she was 6 weeks old.
But now she is excelling at music because she put her single mindedness to it. She sticks to things and is amazingly assertive. I really admire her.
As my lot get older the easier going ones are the ones I worry more about, my headstrong one I have confidence she'll be fine.

So I'm afraid I have no real advice, we just survived each day. There was no way to change her, but the years will pass and once you're out the other side you'll watch her and she'll amaze you and you'll be glad she couldn't be tamed.

@recycledcat It was once he started to become a bit independent and to sleep a little better. So probably around the age of 3 we started to think we could survive having a second.
Before that age it was just constant exhaustion.
We never considered not having a second, and tbh we actually didn't fully realise how difficult his behaviour was compared to other children at the time - there were no baby groups where we lived, I had no mum friends, we don't live near any family (different country).

My eldest is much more difficult than my other two. Some children are just harder work. I try to focus on his strengths, of which there are many, it does get easier as they get older.