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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be fucking appalled by Dr Loftus

61 replies

NewtoHolland · 16/12/2021 20:46

Imagine being a privileged and educated woman and deciding to put your expertise to use in defending rich and powerful rapists and paedophiles. Being paid to essentially tart up facts that most lay people know, that memory changes over time. And using that fact to try to discredit victims accounts. Honestly out of all the things she could do. Bet her mama Is really proud.

AIBU to be appalled by this woman and her grimey choice of job?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/ghislaine-maxwell-false-memory-witness-b1977599.html%3famp

OP posts:
BorisBooster · 16/12/2021 20:51

But this is every defence lawyer !

Suzanne999 · 16/12/2021 20:56

I think the lawyers see it more as a ( huge money making) game. I’m winning this one, lost that one etc…
I’ve never understood how a lawyer can defend, and try to get off, someone who is obviously an abuser, murderers, rapist. One of the things that put me off my first choice of career as a lawyer.

NewtoHolland · 16/12/2021 21:02

I get where you are coming from defence lawyer wise, but I guess I see specifically focusing on spouting utter shit that everyone knows about memory in order to discredit victims as somehow a bit worse in some way...it just seems like such an utter poison bullshit job.
What do you do?
I exploit the fact that memory isn't 100% reliable to increase juries doubts about vulnerable victims.
It's such a dick thing to be paid for
Especially when that argument can obv be used about both sides like the perps memories aren't 100% reliable either??
Such a shady way to make your dollar.

OP posts:
NewtoHolland · 16/12/2021 21:06

I think in my mind defence lawyers are needed because obvs not everyone is guilty and everyone should have access to defence should they need it...but this role isn't a necessary one.

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Toplowlight · 16/12/2021 21:35

It’s always interesting to me when people focus their rage at women who didn’t commit rape instead of the people who actually did the raping.

Toplowlight · 16/12/2021 21:36

@BorisBooster

But this is every defence lawyer !
Eh?!

Do you think the world would be a better place without defence lawyers…?

imthenextinline · 16/12/2021 21:40

@BorisBooster

But this is every defence lawyer !
Elizabeth Loftus isn't a defence lawyer she's a self-styled expert witness in the field of memory.
NewtoHolland · 16/12/2021 21:40

Oh God, I am much much more ragey at Ms Maxwell, that just seems less thread worthy because that's on my kind of a given.

I just hadn't realised this particular brand of bullshit was a job until today.

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BorisBooster · 16/12/2021 21:41

@Toplowlight

The job of a defence lawyer is to defend their client. This is what they do and discredit witnesses regardless of whether the truth is being told.

No surprise

Yes we need defence lawyers never said we didn't for fair justice in a civil society even though it may be unpalatable.

Griefmonster · 16/12/2021 21:43

"grimey choice of job"? She appears to be a research scientist.

There are very justifiable arguments to be had about the way rich people can afford certain privilege in mounting a defence than others. But taking aim at someone's academic research seems a bit of a stretch.

You will usually find with expert witnesses that they will appear for a broad range of clients. "Baddies" and "goodies"

Georgeskitchen · 16/12/2021 21:50

Every one in a civilised country is entitled to a fair trial and and to defend themselves against the accusations. The only people who know the absolute truth are those who were present. Who is to say they are not lying? ( not saying they are but it's not unknown for people to make false allegations)

imthenextinline · 16/12/2021 21:52

I read one of Elizabeth Loftus' books when I was struggling after I began to have some particularly troubling memories from childhood that I had no prior recollection of.

As far as I can recall she is absolutely determined to convince the world that it is not possible to forget a trauma and then remember it at a much later date.

She is, of course, unable to prove that this is not possible for this to happen but what she did find was that it is possible for people 'remember' things that didn't happen.

She created a 'lost in the mall' experiment where people were told that a childhood scenario had happened to them and (some of them) began to believe it.

It was all linked to the 'false memory' debate of the 90s.

She worked very hard to undermine anybody who had experienced a trauma and forgotten it by saying the memories were 'planted' by therapists.

I read her work while I was trying to work out if what I was remembering was real or not. I also read plenty of work that supported that traumatic memories could be blocked out and remembered later, it was very common amongst holocaust survivors and there is plenty of research showing that children who have grown up with Social Care involvement will block out traumatic incidents that they then remember in later life and these are corroborated by their Social Services records.

I, myself, had my 'forgotten' traumatic memories corroborated also.

Elizabeth Loftus has dedicated her academic life to undermining the testimony of trauma survivors.

NewtoHolland · 16/12/2021 21:56

Yeah her list includes Ted Bundy and Harvey Weinstein so Its not very pretty.
I don't think being a research scientist is grimey, but choosing to line your pockets by using your research to discredit abuse victims I do feel is a very grimey choice..
It's not her research I have a problem with. It's her choice (which many people in her field don't make) to use this as a self-styled 'expert' witness to discredit victims of abuse.
It is a choice to use her work in that way and I do feel it's really grimey....I could be totally wrong but I believe it isn't anything unique or exciting being able to understand that memories alter over time I think that is a widely known fact so it isn't anything particularly special in her research that gives her this role...it's a decision to use her research to reap in money, for discrediting abuse victims.

OP posts:
imthenextinline · 16/12/2021 21:57

@NewtoHolland

Yeah her list includes Ted Bundy and Harvey Weinstein so Its not very pretty. I don't think being a research scientist is grimey, but choosing to line your pockets by using your research to discredit abuse victims I do feel is a very grimey choice.. It's not her research I have a problem with. It's her choice (which many people in her field don't make) to use this as a self-styled 'expert' witness to discredit victims of abuse. It is a choice to use her work in that way and I do feel it's really grimey....I could be totally wrong but I believe it isn't anything unique or exciting being able to understand that memories alter over time I think that is a widely known fact so it isn't anything particularly special in her research that gives her this role...it's a decision to use her research to reap in money, for discrediting abuse victims.
I agree and YANBU in my opinion.
Aspiringmatriarch · 16/12/2021 22:00

I think it sounds pseudo-scientific tbh. I sometimes wonder how the courts decide who is a reliable 'expert'. Yes memories can change but that shouldn't be used to discredit the accounts of victims who are coming forward with detailed and corroborated information. Yes if there are obvious anomalies, but outside of that that it just seems like a form of gaslighting.

NewtoHolland · 16/12/2021 22:04

@imthenextinline
That is really interesting to understand with more of a context that this is part of her wider agenda.
How odd.
Disassociation makes total sense as a way of coping with really distressing memories. Sorry to hear that you have been through trauma.

I would read her book to understand her POV more...but I'd hate to put any money her way.

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Griefmonster · 16/12/2021 22:10

I accept I don't know about her in particular.

If her life's mission is ensuring serial killers and rapists are let off then she doesn't seem to have a great success rate - given those mentioned were ultimately convicted.

I can more imagine someone in her line of work, being in an academic bubble. That she doesnt actively choose NOT to take such work, rather than seeks it out?

I do find it concerning that the tone of the thread appeared to be anti- justice.

Our world is a much better place for having open justice and a right to a fair trial including the right to defend yourself.

imthenextinline · 16/12/2021 22:11

[quote NewtoHolland]@imthenextinline
That is really interesting to understand with more of a context that this is part of her wider agenda.
How odd.
Disassociation makes total sense as a way of coping with really distressing memories. Sorry to hear that you have been through trauma.

I would read her book to understand her POV more...but I'd hate to put any money her way.[/quote]
From what I can recall she had a personal stake with regards to how she dealt with a personal trauma of her own. Don't quote me, but I think her book ends with the 'bombshell' that AHA she, herself, experienced a traumatic event in childhood.

Which I think may have been her mother drowning (awful and very traumatic no doubt and I have absolute empathy for that) and somewhere along the line somewhere told her that she had witnessed it or discovered the body or similar, which actually wasn't the case but she internalised the story that she had.

She's always truck me as someone who would very much benefit from some personal therapy to process her own traumatic experiences but she's dedicated a lot of time to undermining the therapy profession so that's unlikely to happen, I would imagine.

imthenextinline · 16/12/2021 22:12

(and thank you, I'm fine now but appreciate your empathy)

imthenextinline · 16/12/2021 22:22

"I do find it concerning that the tone of the thread appeared to be anti- justice.

Our world is a much better place for having open justice and a right to a fair trial including the right to defend yourself."

And critiquing the evidence presented before the court is a key piece of the process. EL is not a defence lawyer, no one is being 'anti justice' we are applying critical thought.

Ponoka7 · 16/12/2021 22:27

"Being paid to essentially tart up facts "

If you care so much about women, start to remove slurs such as tart from your vocabulary.

NewtoHolland · 16/12/2021 22:37

Ponoka7 fair play, could have used a much better word.

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NewtoHolland · 16/12/2021 22:45

Yep not an anti-justice thread...
Acknowledged very early on that access to a defence team is an essential...

It's really interesting hearing the range of perspectives. I was just hugely hugely annoyed by this today and didn't want to vent on my own social media but wanted to explore if this was a general reaction/ feeling or not. It's been interesting learning a little more about EL and her research in general.

I'm reasonably comfortable with criticism and people feeling 100% the opposite to my perspective or I wouldn't have posted in AIBU.

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GoodPrincessWenceslas · 16/12/2021 22:55

@Suzanne999

I think the lawyers see it more as a ( huge money making) game. I’m winning this one, lost that one etc… I’ve never understood how a lawyer can defend, and try to get off, someone who is obviously an abuser, murderers, rapist. One of the things that put me off my first choice of career as a lawyer.
Nobody knows for certain that a given individual is guilty unless they saw them commit the crime, or unless they admit it - and in the latter case they may still be innocent. If you really think accused people shouldn't be entitled to a defence, read The Secret Barrister.
GoodPrincessWenceslas · 16/12/2021 23:00

The science of memory is very complex, and there are well-attested instances where it has been demonstrated that it is perfectly possible to plant false memories. Dismissing what Dr Loftus has to say is very simplistic.