If Labour don't agree with the government, why don't they vote against them?

[Jourdain11]

Even if they say they would have brought in similar Covid measures, they're still saying they're not being done in the right time / in the right way / in the right places. If they don't agree with the government's strategy, why don't they vote against? They could easily have defeated the government tonight on the vaccine passports, which many Labour MPs are dubious about. That would have given them the unspoken mandate for a confidence motion, which while it wouldn't have achieved anything in terms of actually getting the government out, could put the pressure on and give Labour a chance to be more instrumental in shaping policy.

It's not a matter of "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good". Nor is it a matter of "patriotic duty". If they think the government are doing a rubbish job and are letting people down, they have a patriotic duty to try to defeat them.

Truly, I don't get it. It is so defeatist... so devoid of imagination.

Yes - of course the opposition should support the government, now comma more than ever

No - if they lump it then they lose the right to keep saying that they don't like it.

Keir Starmer called Boris out after the votes tonight telling him that Labour won't be propping the Tories up forever & to shape up or ship out. He also commented that when 98 Mp's vote against a 3 line whip then it shows the leadership isn't working. If the Tories lose North Shropshire on Thursday then I definitely think Boris's days are numbered.

@DismantledKing

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/the-most-important-issues-facing-the-country

This polling tracker shows what the British public consider to be the most important issues facing the country. Health is number one, followed by immigration, the economy & the environment. The politics of gender identity is not on the list. Because it’s a fringe issue.

I'm not suggesting for a minute that the opposition could defeat the government in a confidence motion. I'm suggesting that, by defeating the government in an important vote, they buy more input into the creation of future legislation. They can force the government to listen to them, because they need their votes to get the legislation through the house. At the moment, Labour have that power and they're giving the Tories an easy pass by tossing it aside. The government may have an 80-strong majority, but they don't have an 80-strong majority on this issue. Remember that it only takes 41 to vote against, in any vote, for that majority to be lost.

You can make out that I'm thick as shit if you like, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not "playground politics", it's parliamentary politics. You can say "that's not how it works"; well, in that case pretty much the whole of 2019 was not how it works.

And finally, gender equality is a human rights issue, not "fringe identity politics".

[quote PlanetNormal]@DismantledKing

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/the-most-important-issues-facing-the-country

This polling tracker shows what the British public consider to be the most important issues facing the country. Health is number one, followed by immigration, the economy & the environment. The politics of gender identity is not on the list. Because it’s a fringe issue.[/quote]

1. That’s irrelevant. It’s important to a lot of people.
2. It’s because people aren’t aware of the problem. Or because twats like Streeting call anyone that is concerned about it ‘bigots’.

[quote PlanetNormal]@DismantledKing

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/the-most-important-issues-facing-the-country

This polling tracker shows what the British public consider to be the most important issues facing the country. Health is number one, followed by immigration, the economy & the environment. The politics of gender identity is not on the list. Because it’s a fringe issue.[/quote]
Women's rights does not = gender identity. Some would say the opposite.

How can something which affects half the population be a "fringe issue"?

Um.

I'm not suggesting for a minute that the opposition could defeat the government in a confidence motion. I'm suggesting that, by defeating the government in an important vote, they buy more input into the creation of future legislation. They can force the government to listen to them, because they need their votes to get the legislation through the house. At the moment, Labour have that power and they're giving the Tories an easy pass by tossing it aside. The government may have an 80-strong majority, but they don't have an 80-strong majority on this issue. Remember that it only takes 41 to vote against, in any vote, for that majority to be lost.

The Tories will not involve Labour in decision making. They wouldn’t do it during parliaments with far smaller majorities. It just won’t happen. If a confidence issue is forced, the Tories will unite to see off the problem.

The Tories will stab any leader in the back the minute they think they're an electoral liability.

“It’s because people aren’t aware of the problem.”

People aren’t aware of the ‘problem’ because it’s a fringe issue which they aren’t interested in and don’t care about.

@PlanetNormal

“It’s because people aren’t aware of the problem.”

People aren’t aware of the ‘problem’ because it’s a fringe issue which they aren’t interested in and don’t care about.

I’m sorry, that’s just bullshit.

I refer you again to that polling tracker. I completely understand that the politics of gender identity matters a lot to small, electorally insignificant numbers of people on either side of the argument. But to the vast majority of ordinary voters, it’s an irrelevant fringe issue.

The government may have an 80-strong majority, but they don't have an 80-strong majority on this issue. Remember that it only takes 41 to vote against, in any vote, for that majority to be lost.You can make out that I'm thick as shit if you like, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not "playground politics", it's parliamentary politics. You can say "that's not how it works"; well, in that case pretty much the whole of 2019 was not how it works

In 2019 the Tories didn't have an 80 seat majority (until December). That's why it was different then.

And as for saying that the Tory rebels have their constituents interests at heart and are not thick... Did you see Andrew Bridgen suggesting that the solution to Covid was to...recover from it? The rebels are almost exclusively on the right of the party and those who supported Brexit. They certainly didn't give a stuff about anyone's best interests then.

And why do people keep saying Labour don't want to suggest a solution. They have put forward loads of suggestions, but people don't listen/it's not the headline as the Tories are the ones in power and it's a crisis but people are happy to assert Labour have said nothing when in fact they have but it's not been widely reported because they can't do it because they aren't in power.

I've seen plenty of polling which doesn't indicate majority support for "robust action".

Where?

It’s not the time to be point scoring

At times the leaders should be united this is one of those times

@PlanetNormal

I refer you again to that polling tracker. I completely understand that the politics of gender identity matters a lot to small, electorally insignificant numbers of people on either side of the argument. But to the vast majority of ordinary voters, it’s an irrelevant fringe issue.

To borrow a turn of phrase, ‘you might not be interested in “gender identity issues”, but they’re certainly interested in you’, as they affect the rights of half of the population; women’s rights are being eroded without protest from supposedly ‘progressive’ politicians. I’m a member of Labour, but I won’t vote for them (or anyone) while they hold this stance or promote nasty wankers like Streeting to the front bench while refusing to back the likes of Rosie Duffield. There’s plenty like me.

Labour voted with the Conservatives re Brexit too.
Hard to think of them as the opposition really.

@PlanetNormal

Political credibility. All the polling indicates that the overwhelming majority of the public supports robust action by the government to control omicron. The government are taking action, so Labour is supporting that action because it’s the right thing to do, both scientifically & politically.

It’s the Tory rebels & the left-wing Labour awkward squad who voted against the government that are out of touch with public opinion, not the Labour leadership & front bench.

this

The back benchers standing ''on principle'' in the face of a public health emergency ought to be ashamed. This rebellion appeared to be for the preservation of 'freedom' .. really? lives lost, endless days of education missed, inability to travel, non-Covid19 health needs postponed, businesses destroyed, many losing their employment , others working in untenable conditions (e.g. NHS / Teachers).. strikes me as a rather dystopian type of freedom? I can't understand what they are 'fighting' for.. say what you will but this virus will continue to rule our lives if we allow it to spread & evolve untethered because that is what viruses are built to do..