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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to not want DF's ex-wife to move in following discharge from being sectioned (4th time this year)?

50 replies

LadySherlock · 28/11/2021 14:02

My DF's ex-wife...of 30+ years (also my estranged mother) has been sectioned four times this year. Her diagnosis is non-organic psychosis, which she completely denies. She is due to be discharged after approx two months in hospital for this latest section period. Her landlord gave her notice to quit following a previous section when the police had to break down the door because she wouldn't talk to the mental health team and just kept telling them there was nothing wrong her (she was accusing people of trying to murder her and police etc were heavily involved, all unfounded and just part of her psychosis).

My mother disowned me about six years over something and nothing. She assumed I would be there to do everything she asked/demanded of me. One day I said I wasn't going to do something (she never asked, just assumed) and all hell broke loose. Complete over reaction on her part. Didn't speak to me after that. Hey ho, our lives are better for not having a manipulative person in our family.

I've now found out that they are looking to discharge her to my DF's house. She was "dumped" there a year ago by her sister who told my DF that she had nowhere else to go, despite having paid six months upfront for a lovely flat. When she was previously at DF's house, about a month before she was first sectioned, she caused all sorts of problems, which went completely over my DF's head. Example going out with scissors to slash tyres. DF just said "she's no harm". Don't get me started on the screwdriver in her shopping bag or carrying a hammer up the street! My sister would be ringing me every few days panicking about mother's behaviour and concerned about our DF during this three week stay. DF did worry every time she went out, which she did a lot due to delusions/voices in her head. Even at that time he seemed to choose to ignore the issues and the trouble her behaviour caused and just said "she was fine". He's always held a torch for her, no matter how badly she has used and abused him and just sees her through rose-tinted spectacles.

My worry is that we are going to end up in the same situation as last year if she moves in with him. DF now has a diagnosis of mixed dementia and I'm concerned that the stress and worry he had a year ago when she was there, which he chose to overlook, will not help his health and wellbeing. My sister wants her to move in but hasn't to my knowledge told mother that DF has dementia. Think she believes they can "look after one another" which would some responsibility away from her. My relationship with sister is now strained, possibly broken. I think she is having/has had some kind of breakdown. Been trying to support her through all this for last three years but now she is acting really strange, like Jekyll and Hyde type behaviour, and echoes of mother's paranoia.

So long story, sorry, but wanted to give background. My question is, AIBU for not wanting her to move in as I think it will just cause loads of trouble, certainly in the long run. As previously it is me and my DH who have had to deal with things when the proverbial has hit the fan. Should I just wait and see what happens? Don't want to be dragged into it at all as it did affect mine and DH's wellbeing/stress levels. Feel that if the three of them want this to go ahead then they can deal with the consequences.

OP posts:
HairyScaryMonster · 28/11/2021 16:52

I'd be flagging safeguarding for DF if he's diagnosed with dementia, it doesn't sound safe for him to have your mother living there.

Cameleongirl · 28/11/2021 17:04

Has anything changed with your Mum’s situation, I.e. is she now on medication for her illness? If not, your Dad is potentially in danger as PP’s have said.

MatildaTheCat · 28/11/2021 17:23

YANBU but realistically if your DF wants her there the authorities are going to jump on that as they will be keen to discharge her and free up the bed. At lest if she is with family it’s possible to keep an eye on the situation much as you don’t want to (understandably).

In your shoes I’d probably write to her consultant and SW/CPN/GP and state very clearly what your concerns are. It doesn’t sound like a very sustainable situation but might work for a while.

Best wishes.

godmum56 · 28/11/2021 17:23

@TillyTopper

Have you considered getting an Lasting Power of Attorney in health/welfare matters? He would need to agree and his doctor would need to agree you are in a position to exercise it (but that may not be hard as he has dementia). You can do this here but obviously your DF would need to agree.
@TillyTopper It doesn't work like that. If he doesn't have capacity then he can't agree to an LPA (and they have to be given by the person, not "taken" by the relative even though the reli may well suggest it and help set it up) If he does have capacity enough to give it then it can't be activated until he doesn't. And it would be exceptional for a person to have enough capacity to give it one day and for it to be activated very soon after without an event like stroke or head injury.
godmum56 · 28/11/2021 17:24

@HairyScaryMonster

I'd be flagging safeguarding for DF if he's diagnosed with dementia, it doesn't sound safe for him to have your mother living there.
If he still has capacity then it can't be a safeguarding issue.
LadySherlock · 28/11/2021 18:05

@TillyTopper

Have you considered getting an Lasting Power of Attorney in health/welfare matters? He would need to agree and his doctor would need to agree you are in a position to exercise it (but that may not be hard as he has dementia). You can do this here but obviously your DF would need to agree.
I'm already in the process of doing both types of LPA. Forms submitted a month ago for me to be sole attorney as DF didn't want my sister involved as she has been really obstructive about setting one up and wanted everything to be done jointly (just not practical). It's taking about four months for them to be registered at the moment (just done them for my in-laws and it took that long). As long as DF has capacity, which he has at the moment, he can make his own decisions....they may not always be the best ones though! Love is blind.
OP posts:
GooseberryJam · 28/11/2021 18:14

@Theunamedcat

Warn everyone then when your ignored

Leave them too it and refuse to engage but keep in touch with adult social care report everything to them they won't deal with it until the whole family won't deal with it

This. You will have to step back and wait for it to go wrong, unfortunately.

What care or family help does your dad have in place at the moment?

PenguinWings · 28/11/2021 18:19

Does your Dad have a social worker? He's possibly a vulnerable adult and I'd question who did the capacity Ax on your Dad? He doesn't seem to understand the risks that he is agreeing to. I'd suggest that he needs a specific assessment of his capacity to agree to be a carer for a person who has previously threatened to stab people. The SW for your mum may have just said that there's no reason to doubt his capacity, because he's not their client.
I'm not an expert in this.

I'm really sorry that this is happening to you.

TheSilveryPussycat · 28/11/2021 18:41

If he still has capacity then it can't be a safeguarding issue.

Not true. It applies to any vulnerable adult. They are both vulnerable adults.

grassisgreen · 28/11/2021 18:50

Capacity should be a specific decision - DF may have capacity to make himself toast for breakfast (as a psychologist once explained to me) but not for more difficult issues. His GP/MH consultant has to consider very carefully if he has capacity to decide whether he looks after someone; Someone who has a serious mental health disorder, including prior abuse of him, someone who is unstable and physically threatening and DF is vulnerable himself. Dementia may affect DF's complex decision making, and this is a very complex decision.
OP you have numerous issues going on here - DF is vulnerable and potentially needs support. He needs safeguarding. Separately estrangedM must be treated responsibly and appropriately for her care. She needs safeguarding. DSis may not be able to cope with either of them.
It's not going to be easy and there is no right answer, first thing I would do is talk to the MH service for estrangedM (about her medication, likely behaviour, support required), and then DF's GP re capacity and safeguarding for potentially difficult living arrangements.

Your original question was whether DF, eM and DSis should go ahead with the living arrangements if they "want" it.
The point is you need to check if DF and eM have the ability to fully understand and actually deal with the consequences - it's not a question of people with serious MH issues "wanting" it.
If you are being responsible and taking on Power of Attorney then you are responsible about the living arrangements, and supporting your DF with his decision making.

DeeCeeCherry · 28/11/2021 18:51

But she's not your DF's wife anymore? Im totally confused as to why she would even be discharged to his home. He's not her husband.

LadySherlock · 28/11/2021 19:25

@DeeCeeCherry

But she's not your DF's wife anymore? Im totally confused as to why she would even be discharged to his home. He's not her husband.
I think it is because DF would welcome her with open arms, as he did a year ago when she had turned to her sister for help and her sister turned up on my DF's doorstep telling him "she has nowhere else to go". DF couldn't remember who had taken her to his house when we asked him, not even if it was a man or woman!

So, as she stayed there before, and as they do speak on the phone, I think they must have agreed between them she could go there.

One of the few friends she has left (psychotic behaviour has meant she has fallen out with many good friends) suggested supported/sheltered accommodation may be best but apparently she has dismissed this option.

OP posts:
TheSilveryPussycat · 28/11/2021 19:27

Also, AIUI, when a POA is activated, any decisions made by you on his behalf are supposed to be your best guess as to what he himself would have chosen.
(can anyone on the thread confirm this?)

grassisgreen · 28/11/2021 19:40

From what I understand a decision made under a PoA has to be in person's best interests, which does not necessarily mean it's what they themselves would have decided, albeit it should be taken into account.

TheSilveryPussycat · 28/11/2021 19:43

I don't suppose she will have been discharged back into the community straight from the section, but will have stayed as an informal patient while her meds were assessed, and to begin to recover. (personal 1st person experience of this)

She doesn't take her meds after discharge I guess?

Twinkle1989 · 28/11/2021 19:45

I would certainly flag this with the mother's Social Worker, CPN or Care Coordinator ASAP. They have a legal duty under S117 of Mental Health Act 1983 to provide aftercare in the community, and provide for any such needs arising from the mental disorder including accommodation and a support package.

I would flag, flag, flag the dementia and raise it as safeguarding and make that very clear to the CPN, SW or CC. Ultimately, your mother can do what she pleases once discharged from hospital, and live where she likes - anything preventing her doing this could be a Deprivation of Liberty and be illegal. Hopefully if you flag enough, the team will look into alternatives which she may be agreeable to.

grassisgreen · 28/11/2021 20:09

OP - you will need written permission from DF for you to discuss his confidential medical info with his GP, (and the same for your estrangedM if you speak to her Community MH team).
You stated that DF's short term memory is not good - he couldn't remember who brought estrangedM. Sounds as though someone needs to be ready to support him.

Gottahavehighhopes · 28/11/2021 20:20

@Twinkle1989

Not necessarily 117. I don't think OP has said section 3, it might be 136's followed by an informal stay and not all section 3s are followed up by 117

IamtheDevilsAvocado · 28/11/2021 20:50

@grassisgreen

OP - you will need written permission from DF for you to discuss his confidential medical info with his GP, (and the same for your estrangedM if you speak to her Community MH team). You stated that DF's short term memory is not good - he couldn't remember who brought estrangedM. Sounds as though someone needs to be ready to support him.
As long as she is not ASKING about their confidential matters...

She can TELL them the issues as she sees it... And the very real risk to both father w dementia and mum with psychosis.

She is doing this in their best interests.

IamtheDevilsAvocado · 28/11/2021 20:59

I'd also raise a safeguarding concern tomorrow about your dad with social services. I'd also follow it up in writing.

With mixed dementia he may well have fluctuating capacity.

He needs to be able to recall, that his ex. wife is wandering around his home and the town carrying weapons and all the risks this presents.

From what you've said he can't remember this which would put his decision where he acquiesced to her living there in question. This should be part of any capacity decision.

I would also use the phrase... It is unethical pushing my father with dementia into having his seriously ill ex. Wife who carries weapons and has regular psychotic paranoid ideation... Putting both him and her at risk...

Something like that...

Twinkle1989 · 28/11/2021 21:37

[quote Gottahavehighhopes]@Twinkle1989

Not necessarily 117. I don't think OP has said section 3, it might be 136's followed by an informal stay and not all section 3s are followed up by 117[/quote]
I wouldn't really class a S136 as being sectioned as there's no formal mental health act assessment. Assuming she's been in hospital 'sectioned' for 2 months, I would assume this is under S3.

All S3 detentions qualify for aftercare - whether or not it is followed up is a different matter.

tallduckandhandsome · 28/11/2021 21:51

@Spidey66

I take it DF is your dad? I thought it was your fiancé and got confused about the ‘and my estranged mother.’
Thought it was pretty clear from the context. OP’s fiancé being married to her estranged mother for 30 years seemed unlikely.
Stompythedinosaur · 29/11/2021 01:42

It is up to your df who he has moving in, if he has capacity.

It's unfair to paint her as dangerous based on how she behaved when very unwell.

TokyoTen · 29/11/2021 21:39

True @godmum56 but I suggested it ad it could be useful in future. This is a recurring problem as it's the 4th time his wife had been sectioned this year. So it may not help immediately but could in the future.

godmum56 · 29/11/2021 21:54

@TokyoTen

True *@godmum56* but I suggested it ad it could be useful in future. This is a recurring problem as it's the 4th time his wife had been sectioned this year. So it may not help immediately but could in the future.
only if he will agree......and if she already is concerned that he has dementia and won't cope then I think its too late......
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